After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
Former Member
In British Columbia they have barred use of swim suits that are Below the Knee for anyone under 18 in competition.
of course, speedo knows that people will buy them. You can't blame them. Coaches should limit their kids to what they can wear.
Something else I noticed is that the fs2 jammer is still $150. Are they ever going to drop the price?!? It has dropped on swimoutlet though. It would be dumb to buy something from speedousa.com.
Be it resolved that: effective September 1, 2008, swimsuits that extend below the knee not be allowed by athletes 18 & under at Swim BC sanctioned competitions while competing in age group events. These swimsuits will be permitted to be used by 18 & under swimmers within open category/Senior events.
One coach sent this info to his swimmers.
1. “September 1, 2008”: That’s right – this doesn’t take effect until NEXT season. So, whatever suit you have now or want to buy for this year, there’s nothing to stop a person from using whatever they like, provided it conforms to the FINA rules.
(Speaking of which, did you know that FINA has an explicit rule stating that “swimsuits shall be non-transparent”? Too bad we can’t get that enforced during public lane swimming. Hey – public swimmer dude: that yellow Lycra suit you bought back during the Reagan administration – it was NOT meant to be a lifetime investment!)
But I digress.
Just to re-iterate: if you have a suit that goes below the knees, now’s the time to use it (and being that they’re really only effective for a limited number of uses anyway, a swimmer can make use of its full potential over the remainder of the season).
2. “at Swim BC sanctioned competitions”: being that Swim BC is the sanctioning authority for swimming competitions in BC, this means that this rule will be in effect for pretty much every meet in BC (pursuant to the other parts of this motion)
a. It should also be pointed out that this rule is currently in effect ONLY in BC (within Canada); as things stand today, BC swimmers competing at any meet in other provinces within Canada can use whatever FINA-approved suit they like
3. “swimmers aged 18&U”: After Sept. 1, 2008, if you’re aged 19&Over, wear whatever you like. These suits were designed and are marketed with Senior swimmers in mind, so if you’re in that age category, have at ‘em.
4. “While competing in Age Group events”: on the other hand, any swimmer 18&Under will not be permitted to wear a suit which extends below their knees in any age-limited events (like 12&U, 13-14, 18&U, etc.)
5. “WILL be allowed by 18&U swimmers within Open category / Senior events”: This basically covers two different scenarios.
a. First, 18&U swimmers competing at an “Open-age” meet (like Senior Champs, Senior Nationals, etc.) can use any FINA-approved suit
b. Secondly, at an age group meet, a 14-year-old, for example, would be permitted to use any FINA-approved suit if they were to enter and compete in an “Open” or “Senior” age category.
Note that a “15&Over” age category, for example, would still be considered an age-group category (i.e., 15-18-year-olds would have to compete in that category), and thus subject to the “no suit below the knees” restriction.
I'm surprised after looking at the jump in times since the introduction of the LZR that there is even a debate as to whether or not this suit is significantly faster.
Because that isn't how science works. Correlation is not causation. You're assuming that the LZRs are the only thing that has changed.
When all you have is correlation, you need to make an effort to account for other variables that affect the result (either through directly controlling them, or measuring and modeling their effects, or choosing your observations carefully, none of which has been done to my knowledge) and you really ought to have a plausible mechanism for the effect.
If LZR legskins are really THAT MUCH better than FS-Pro legskins, I'd love to hear a plausible reason. No one here has offered one.
The LZR had a profound effect over a one month period since it was released. It's tough to argue I think that so much change has gone through other than the LZR being released over that 1 month period. Furthermore, the fact that many athletes who did not wear the LZR did not see the type of improvement swimmers who did wear it saw makes it even harder to argue it wasn't the LZR.
That's your opinion, but that's all it is, sorry.
I don't have to argue a thing, the burden of proof is on those who claim a significant and large improvement to prove their case. Gather your data, analyze it and submit it for peer-reviewed publication if you think you have done so.
I know a little girl who bought a technical swim suit not the two you are talking about. she bought it on Friday and took 5 seconds off her best time on Saturday for 100m breaststroke.
Kitajima tried an LZR and immediately set a WR by a good bit.
If you have 20 people and 10 don't swim faster while the other 10 set new world records what do you conclude?
I'm surprised after looking at the jump in times since the introduction of the LZR that there is even a debate as to whether or not this suit is significantly faster.
Yes, he wore legskins. Why would the LZR legskins be so much better than the FS-Pros? Aren't they nearly the same material?
Yes, he wore legskins. Why would the LZR legskins be so much better than the FS-Pros? Aren't they nearly the same material?
I don't think Kitajima was wearing FS-Pros prior to the LZR, he wore Mizuno or something like that didn't he? Was he wearing legskins prior the the LZR or jammers?
And the FS-Pro doesn't have the rubberized panels the LZR does.
Stats aside, I can't see how anyone can think that the LZR has no effect after the number of world records broken since its release (almost all in the LZR) and the dramatic drop in times since then in such a short period of time where training/etc could have hardly had an impact. Then again, that's just my opinion.
Statistically speaking, if we use some expected improvement in average times of say the top X swimmers in a certain event over x time and then calculate how far from the norm the improvement was since the release of the LZR, I think you would find the null hypothesis that Chris refers to (i.e. the LZR has no effect) quite unlikely to hold w reasonable choice of p. I'm too lazy to do it right now though.
The LZR had a profound effect over a one month period since it was released. It's tough to argue I think that so much change has gone through other than the LZR being released over that 1 month period. Furthermore, the fact that many athletes who did not wear the LZR did not see the type of improvement swimmers who did wear it saw makes it even harder to argue it wasn't the LZR.
Because that isn't how science works. Correlation is not causation. You're assuming that the LZRs are the only thing that has changed.
When all you have is correlation, you need to make an effort to account for other variables that affect the result (either through directly controlling them, or measuring and modeling their effects, or choosing your observations carefully, none of which has been done to my knowledge) and you really ought to have a plausible mechanism for the effect.
If LZR legskins are really THAT MUCH better than FS-Pro legskins, I'd love to hear a plausible reason. No one here has offered one.
The LZR had a profound effect over a one month period since it was released. It's tough to argue I think that so much change has gone through other than the LZR being released over that 1 month period. Furthermore, the fact that many athletes who did not wear the LZR did not see the type of improvement swimmers who did wear it saw makes it even harder to argue it wasn't the LZR.
Placebo. Swimmers put up big performances in the suit because the suit makes them feel like big performers. As knelson pointed out, that doesn't mean the suit is useless, it just means that it's useful in a different way than most people think it is.
