After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
Texas men all wear the LZR at their conference meet...where they broke the US Open, NCAA & American record in the 800 free relay with a time of 6:10.55....last night the same 4 without the suits goes 6:16.54....?
You could argue they missed their taper...but overall the team is swimming fairly well and will probably finish 2nd behind Arizona tonight...
Did they wear the LZR for all their events at conference or only the free relay? If they wore them for all the events, then you can't draw any firm conclusions (and you shouldn't t be cherry-picking your data!) since, as you said, any differences can be assigned to either the suit or differences in taper.
(In the post you gave from Gary Hall, he sure didn't seem to think the suit was an adequate explanation for 21.2 in the 50 free.)
They wore them on the 800 free relay at conferance and they didn't wear them on the 800 free relay at NCAA's.
I also just talked to some swimmers that were training with one of the US's top sprinters a few weeks back and all testing the suit. This elite male swimmer popped a 22.7LCM 50 in workout followed by a 50.4LCM 100...
In my mind there is something incredible going on with this suit...but I also think there are other factors at play and have serious doubts just as Gary does about PED's.
Been busy at work and so I just got around to catching up on my "important" reading -- I read the article on PEDs in the Mar 17 issue of Sports Illustrated. They make the point that PEDs are used widely outside of sports -- they mentioned Hollywood, hip hop artists, and aging baby boomers. Probably not news to many of you but I guess I'm out of touch. The larger point is that the use in sports reflects our larger culture, and not the other way around.
Relevant quote: "Joe Biden 'There is something simply un-American about using PEDs.' But it's not un-American. It's entirely American, that search for an edge, that effort to be all you can be, that willingness to push the envelope." (Italics in original article.)
I don't know enough to really comment intelligently on that larger point, but it is interesting, anyway.
About the LZR: I have been hearing about awesome, near-WR performances in practice for at least 25 years now, long before the LZR was a twinkle in Speedo's eye. And I've known many swimmers who can do near-PB times in practice (which is what your example is, just at an elite level) without using a special suit.
I'm not saying the suit isn't awesome, fast, whatever. (How can I? I've never even seen one in person, much less worn one.) But let's not get carried away by these anecdotes and isolated observations. The best way to seriously address the question of the extent of the LZR's performance enhancement is to do well-designed experiments under race(-like) conditions. Another possiblity is to do post-race data analysis with proper sampling to control for confounding variables (like the effects of taper).
Picking one relay race because it confirms your suspicions just doesn't do anything for me (sorry).
www.nypost.com/.../speedo_in_hot_water_104216.htm
SPEEDO IN HOT WATER
SUPER-SUIT IS EYED AS CHEAT
Here is an excerpt from the article linked by "quicksilver":
"Swimming's international governing body, the Fédération Internationale de Natation, announced it is reviewing Speedo's LZR Racer suit after athletes wearing it broke 16 world records since its Feb. 16 debut. 'There are buoyancy issues,' FINA Executive Director Cornel Marculescu told SwimNews.com. Any device that makes the body more buoyant is banned by FINA."
The word "cheat" is not used in the body of the article.
FINA is going to look into it, seems to be the point of the article.
Regards, VB
They don't appear to be wearing LZRs in this video, but I could be missing something.
www.flocasts.org/.../coverage.php
2:18 has a shot of all the suits
Did they wear the LZR for all their events at conference or only the free relay? If they wore them for all the events, then you can't draw any firm conclusions (and you shouldn't t be cherry-picking your data!) since, as you said, any differences can be assigned to either the suit or differences in taper.
(In the post you gave from Gary Hall, he sure didn't seem to think the suit was an adequate explanation for 21.2 in the 50 free.)
They wore them on the 800 free relay at conferance and they didn't wear them on the 800 free relay at NCAA's.
I also just talked to some swimmers that were training with one of the US's top sprinters a few weeks back and all testing the suit. This elite male swimmer popped a 22.7LCM 50 in workout followed by a 50.4LCM 100...
In my mind there is something incredible going on with this suit...but I also think there are other factors at play and have serious doubts just as Gary does about PED's.
FINA is going to look into it, seems to be the point of the article.
I'll put my money on FINA determining the suit does NOT violate the rules. Then it will just end up as a publicity coup for Speedo: the suit is perfectly legal, it's just that fast.
I've heard there are some countries that are not allowing swimmers to wear LZR's at their olympic trials.
What if fina deems LZR's illegal and bans them?
After seeing a woman break 24 seconds and I think we can stop the discussion of "IF" the LZR suit is faster and start thinking "how much faster".
The previous line of suits (Fastskin and so on) were pretty similiar to a shaved swimmer. Sure - they do feel like they make you float, but overall the times seemed to move along "in line" with what I would expect to see in terms of improvements in the sport. If the previous suits would have been that much faster than shaving, you would have never seen people just using the legskins. By the way - for us Masters swimmers there was always the added benefit of keeping in all the "extra layers of skin".
So how much faster are the LZR suits ?
If I had to guess based on the results so far, I would say 0.25 to 0.30 per 50 and double that for the 100. I can see the Bernard going 48 low in the 100 and I can see Sullivan getting close or just breaking the 50 record. It makes sense that Libby Lenton would swim a 24.2 or so in the 50.
I think one of the top regular teams out there should do a test - you need a good amount of world class swimmers training together to be able to do a test. Here is the test I would propose:
8-10 swimmers
2 days of testing
4x50 on 10 minutes all out
Day 1 - swim 2 with a Fastskin2 followed by 2 with the LZR
Day 2 - swim 2 with the LZR followed by 2 with the Fastskin2
Get the averages of all 10 swimmers - maybe drop the high and low and there you go.
Why do the test ? I would HAVE to know. Swimming is a big part of your life and you just set a massive PR using this new technology - my very first question would be " How much was me and how much was the suit?"?
the only way they could really ascertain the value of wearing a suit would be through repeated testing. in order to have enough data to make a reasonable conclusion you would need a good 20-30 swimmers. have an fs-pro and lzr, both unmarked, so the swimmer does not know which is which. after an identical warmup each day, have the swimmers do either a 50 or 100 free for time. repeat 30 times, with 15 days being lzr days and 15 days fs-pro days. i think that that would be the minimum number of times that the test would have to be performed in order for the variance of the swims not to overpower the deviation between the results we are looking for- the average lzr time vs the average fs pro time. this method of testing would be systematic, random, and block out any mental benefits of owning "the new suit". I would be really surprised if the average 100 lzr time was any more than .2s faster than the fs-pro time if this study were to be conducted.
Texas men all wear the LZR at their conference meet...where they broke the US Open, NCAA & American record in the 800 free relay with a time of 6:10.55....last night the same 4 without the suits goes 6:16.54....?
You could argue they missed their taper...but overall the team is swimming fairly well and will probably finish 2nd behind Arizona tonight...
They weren't in the LZR at conference. Dave Walters was in a FSII and I think Berens, Kleuh, and McGinnis were in FS PRO's.
