From GHJ on The race Club forum:
www.theraceclub.net/.../viewtopic.php
__________________________________________
Gary Hall Jr.
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 578
Location: Sunny Florida
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject:
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Jake, your desire to see the sport progress is distorting your sense of logic. To hear myself talk about logic is shocking- I must be getting old. There is no witch burning going on here, which I am assuming the "Salem" thing is about. I have been involved in this sport for a long time, and so have the "Smith brothers". I am not trying to discredit you, Jake, or your knowledge or passion for the sport which is extremely admirable but you are arguing with guys that have been students of the sport for a lot longer than you or I have been.
I have made it my passion, job and living to study the sport. I have not been shocked this much by a swim since Michelle Smith's 3 gold medal swims in 1996. I am not into defending anyone else on these boards but I am pretty sure that both Smiths are more suspicious of Dara Torres than Eamon Sullivan. Dara is an American. You and the Australians have to get off this patriotism "good old boy" thing. I realize that because of my position in the sport it is easy for someone to assume that my suspicion of these performances is green with envy. Even though it is not so I have made an effort to keep out of it as much as possible.
As someone who has spent as many years studying this sport I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who has spent as many years competing in this sport I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who knows first hand what is required to go a sub 22 second swim I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who has seen cheater's performances in the sport first hand I am entitled to my opinion.
If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck, it usually is a duck.
Or if you would prefer the Johnny Rotten quote:
"If you look like an arsehole, and you talk like an arsehole, and you act like an arsehole, you are an arsehole."
I have seen records smashed before by drug cheats, but nothing like this.
There is enough in common with "unbelievable" performances/rates of progress of the past to suspect cheating here. Suspicion is stopping short of accusing. Accusing could be grounds for a lawsuit. I am not accusing. I am suspicious of 22.2.
Inge de Bruijn at least had the sense to back off when she was too far in front of the pack. I heard her say, with my own ears, in person, after her race in Sydney that she looked around with 15 meters to go and saw that she was too far in front and backed off. At the Olympic Games! She said this to the press! At least she had the sense to try to make it somewhat believable. 22.2 is absurd.
And by the way, and this may shock many of you, there are a lot of people (Americans too) out there that are suspicious of Michael Phelps. When Jager was competing the 50 was a newly recognized contested event.
I am going to say that I believe that Cielo is clean, even though what he is doing is as impressive, more impressive if you believe others are being fueled by something that all athletes don't have access to. He has been with a top level program since he was a kid, swimming with Gustavo Borges in Brazil and Gustavo's coach, Alberto Pinto de Silva. Then he goes to Auburn, THE best collegiate sprint program in the world and trains with Dave Marsh and Brett Hawke, one of the world's best sprinters and obviously now one of the world's best sprint coaches. His time drops have been significant and steady, consistent. Impressive too.
You never heard me say a thing about Roland when he went faster than me. He comes from a solid program with Rick Demont that has produced numerous champions. His rate of progress was the same, consistent, steady. So, I DO NOT accuse anyone that goes faster than me of cheating.
I know that incredible times are possible. I believe that the sport is progressing at an unbelievable pace and that my times aren't anywhere near what the human body is capable of going. I am not jealous, I am suspicious. 22.2 is absurd.
All of these people that have no idea what it takes to swim a sub 22 second 50 meters come running to defend this guy. People that have no idea what his training involves or who his coach is. It is similar to all of those people that defend Dara only because they want more than anything in the world to believe that at 41 you are in the best shape of your life.
I am still trying to get some answers to the "serious" questions that I have asked about Eamon's training and his coaching and his progress and his technique. So I have not completely ruled out the possibility that Eamon is clean and if he is I will gladly give him and his coach the rights to the Race Club in Australia, but I am not yet convinced.
Though I think that this article is a response, a proper one (not the "He's running scared!" "Hall calls Sullivan a CHEATER!!!" "Hall's claims RIDICULOUS!!!" type of Hackett/AUS media/Thompson response) to the questions that SHOULD be asked when someone goes SO freakin fast.
swimnews.com/.../displayStory.jhtml
Also, I would like to add that it is a very real possibility that Eamon has found a new "legal" supplement that is not being tested for. There are new supplements being developed all the time. If it is not on the list of banned substances does it make the person taking it a cheater? I am asking another one of those serious questions here. It could be performance enhancing, like creatine which is legal, or it could be performance enhancing like the BALCO stuff- which in 2000 wasn't on the banned list.
I would like to know if he was given anything to assist in his recovery from three hip surgeries. Again I am asking a serious question, not maliciously. If he was, it is not illegal, if it is taken with a doctor's prescription. They often prescribe growth hormone with surgeries these days. What was he prescribed with his surgeries? I am not accusing, I am asking.
22.2 is staggering. I am asking some civilized questions. Not trying to tarnish his accomplishments. I am serious about the Race Club offer for Australia. I want to believe that Eamon is clean. All he has to do is convince me. If he can do that the rights to the Race Club for all of Australia are his and his coaches. It is the least I can do, in addition to apologizing, for my suspicion.
_________________
Your friend in swimming,
Gary Hall Jr.
Long live the Race Club!
Very interesting. The onslaught of WRs and times are indeed mind boggling. It does look like Sullivan has changed his technique quite a bit. No idea about Stephanie Rice. It will be interesting to compare how the Americans swim at our Trials.
From GHJ on The race Club forum:
www.theraceclub.net/.../viewtopic.php
__________________________________________
Gary Hall Jr.
Joined: 05 Oct 2005
Posts: 578
Location: Sunny Florida
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 6:33 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jake, your desire to see the sport progress is distorting your sense of logic. To hear myself talk about logic is shocking- I must be getting old. There is no witch burning going on here, which I am assuming the "Salem" thing is about. I have been involved in this sport for a long time, and so have the "Smith brothers". I am not trying to discredit you, Jake, or your knowledge or passion for the sport which is extremely admirable but you are arguing with guys that have been students of the sport for a lot longer than you or I have been.
I have made it my passion, job and living to study the sport. I have not been shocked this much by a swim since Michelle Smith's 3 gold medal swims in 1996. I am not into defending anyone else on these boards but I am pretty sure that both Smiths are more suspicious of Dara Torres than Eamon Sullivan. Dara is an American. You and the Australians have to get off this patriotism "good old boy" thing. I realize that because of my position in the sport it is easy for someone to assume that my suspicion of these performances is green with envy. Even though it is not so I have made an effort to keep out of it as much as possible.
As someone who has spent as many years studying this sport I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who has spent as many years competing in this sport I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who knows first hand what is required to go a sub 22 second swim I am entitled to my opinion. As someone who has seen cheater's performances in the sport first hand I am entitled to my opinion.
If it looks like a duck, and it walks like a duck, and it sounds like a duck, and acts like a duck, it usually is a duck.
Or if you would prefer the Johnny Rotten quote:
"If you look like an arsehole, and you talk like an arsehole, and you act like an arsehole, you are an arsehole."
I have seen records smashed before by drug cheats, but nothing like this.
There is enough in common with "unbelievable" performances/rates of progress of the past to suspect cheating here. Suspicion is stopping short of accusing. Accusing could be grounds for a lawsuit. I am not accusing. I am suspicious of 22.2.
Inge de Bruijn at least had the sense to back off when she was too far in front of the pack. I heard her say, with my own ears, in person, after her race in Sydney that she looked around with 15 meters to go and saw that she was too far in front and backed off. At the Olympic Games! She said this to the press! At least she had the sense to try to make it somewhat believable. 22.2 is absurd.
And by the way, and this may shock many of you, there are a lot of people (Americans too) out there that are suspicious of Michael Phelps. When Jager was competing the 50 was a newly recognized contested event.
I am going to say that I believe that Cielo is clean, even though what he is doing is as impressive, more impressive if you believe others are being fueled by something that all athletes don't have access to. He has been with a top level program since he was a kid, swimming with Gustavo Borges in Brazil and Gustavo's coach, Alberto Pinto de Silva. Then he goes to Auburn, THE best collegiate sprint program in the world and trains with Dave Marsh and Brett Hawke, one of the world's best sprinters and obviously now one of the world's best sprint coaches. His time drops have been significant and steady, consistent. Impressive too.
You never heard me say a thing about Roland when he went faster than me. He comes from a solid program with Rick Demont that has produced numerous champions. His rate of progress was the same, consistent, steady. So, I DO NOT accuse anyone that goes faster than me of cheating.
I know that incredible times are possible. I believe that the sport is progressing at an unbelievable pace and that my times aren't anywhere near what the human body is capable of going. I am not jealous, I am suspicious. 22.2 is absurd.
All of these people that have no idea what it takes to swim a sub 22 second 50 meters come running to defend this guy. People that have no idea what his training involves or who his coach is. It is similar to all of those people that defend Dara only because they want more than anything in the world to believe that at 41 you are in the best shape of your life.
I am still trying to get some answers to the "serious" questions that I have asked about Eamon's training and his coaching and his progress and his technique. So I have not completely ruled out the possibility that Eamon is clean and if he is I will gladly give him and his coach the rights to the Race Club in Australia, but I am not yet convinced.
Though I think that this article is a response, a proper one (not the "He's running scared!" "Hall calls Sullivan a CHEATER!!!" "Hall's claims RIDICULOUS!!!" type of Hackett/AUS media/Thompson response) to the questions that SHOULD be asked when someone goes SO freakin fast.
swimnews.com/.../displayStory.jhtml
Also, I would like to add that it is a very real possibility that Eamon has found a new "legal" supplement that is not being tested for. There are new supplements being developed all the time. If it is not on the list of banned substances does it make the person taking it a cheater? I am asking another one of those serious questions here. It could be performance enhancing, like creatine which is legal, or it could be performance enhancing like the BALCO stuff- which in 2000 wasn't on the banned list.
I would like to know if he was given anything to assist in his recovery from three hip surgeries. Again I am asking a serious question, not maliciously. If he was, it is not illegal, if it is taken with a doctor's prescription. They often prescribe growth hormone with surgeries these days. What was he prescribed with his surgeries? I am not accusing, I am asking.
22.2 is staggering. I am asking some civilized questions. Not trying to tarnish his accomplishments. I am serious about the Race Club offer for Australia. I want to believe that Eamon is clean. All he has to do is convince me. If he can do that the rights to the Race Club for all of Australia are his and his coaches. It is the least I can do, in addition to apologizing, for my suspicion.
_________________
Your friend in swimming,
Gary Hall Jr.
Long live the Race Club!
Very interesting. The onslaught of WRs and times are indeed mind boggling. It does look like Sullivan has changed his technique quite a bit. No idea about Stephanie Rice. It will be interesting to compare how the Americans swim at our Trials.
