SDK vs SFSK

Thanks! Excellent answer. Did he say anything about kicking off the walls freestyle? I guess I am wondering if I should stay under water a wee bit longer kicking freestyle, or pop up quickly--which is faster on, say, a 50, 100, and 200 (by 500s, I can't stay under that long even if I wanted to)?

Jim, I think I read somewhere once, a long time ago, that since water doesn't compress, it doesn't move easily between your legs when they are (somewhat) together. Keeping your legs "together" provides a larger surface to move against the water than by moving your legs individually during flutter kicking. Kind of why the fingers of our hands are relaxed, not forcefully held together while stroking (while swimming of course). Make sense?

Here's what Dennis has to say: Coach Dennis Baker Tips on Turns Let’s take some time to look at an important key to successful swimming heading into our meet season and preparing for our Long Course Masters Nationals. I was lucky enough to participate in the USA Swimming Nationals in Atlanta and the USA Senior Sectionals in December, and made an interesting observation at both meets. While watching and swimming with the best swimmers in the world what caught my eye as it pertains to Masters Swimming was turns. It’s an absolute fact that the best swimmers have the best turns. The new craze is the dolphin kick underwater off the wall. I watched Ryan Lochte beat Michael Phelps all because his turns were better underwater. What I asked myself, “is this a viable technique for a Masters Swimmer to work on”? The answer is yes and no. In practice, it is always good to work on getting a tiny bit farther underwater with perfect streamlines and fl utter or dolphin kick, as if putting yourself in oxygen debt. This will make your turns in a competition less fatiguing and you will have a better race. However, in a race, it is not wise to try and emulate swimmers like Lochte, Phelps, and Coughlin. These swimmers generate a huge amount of power off the wall and go very deep. It takes a tremendous amount of time in practice and a lot of strength training to perfect this. The truth, and it hurts to say this, is that the more we age the less viable this type of turn is. My recommendation is not to waste your time and energy trying this in a race. Your time is best served perfecting a nice tight and clean turn. A prime example of this is Dara Torres. At the age of 40, Dara is once again tearing up the pool and has recently set a couple of American Records. Dara doesn’t do a lot of dolphin kicks off the wall. She streamlines, pops right up, and gets to swimming. I witnessed the same style with a few swimmers at the USA nationals. I asked a few of them why they don’t spend a lot of time underwater. Their response was that they were not good at it, and felt more comfortable and faster by just popping up and getting going. One kid I asked had just gone a 42.6 in the 100 yard freestyle! So don’t feel like you are missing out on too much here gang. Keep your turns clean and simple. By this I mean don’t stay too long underwater because you will run out of air and lose the momentum you create from the push off. So what can we do to make our turns better? What is most important to do and not do on your turns? Here is a list and a few drills to help you on your way!!! 1) On a Freestyle turn do not take a breath going into your turn with BOTH ARMS AT YOUR SIDE. It’s ok to take a breath going in, but do a stroke with the breath into the wall. 2) On a Freestyle break out do not take a breath before your fi rst arm stroke. You may have to switch the arm you start with to fi x this. One arm stroke, then a breath. 3) Perfect your breakouts. Having a comfortable strong breakout is what’s most important in turns. As discussed before, it may be a shorter distance under water than you are currently doing. 4) Absolutely, don’t lose the momentum off the wall before you start to swim. Use the force you created off the wall to start your stroke. This relates to number 3. 5) Don’t rush your turn. It’s not so important how fast you get around, but how well you place your feet and have a good push off. Especially, on flip turns. I see and get wet a lot from swimmers slapping their feet so hard on the wall they never get their feet set and have a bad push off. A drill to improve your flip turns: 1) Flip and stop drill. Do your normal flip turn and stop with your feet on the wall for three seconds while sculling with your hands to keep steady. Set your feet well, bend the knees, and have a strong push off. This drill will help you a great deal. Do twenty of these at the end of practice once a week and you will start to notice a change in your regular practice and race turns. A drill to help your open turns: 1) Kick turn drill. Place both hands on the wall with your face in the water. Kick flutter for ten seconds while holding your breath and then do an open turn with a good breakout. This drill will raise your heart rate before the turn and fatigue you. If you can perform a good turn in this state, you can perform a good turn in a race. Do ten of these at the end of practice once a week. Do these drills with breakouts in mind. Don’t stress about not being able to do turns like Lochte, Phelps, and Coughlin and you will be well on your way to better swimming and racing.

Does anyone know if submerged dolphin kicks are always better than submerged freestyle (or backstroke) kicks? each swimmer should test train and retest to figure out what is best for them you wrote "I find fly kicks very tiring and slow for my particular body. It seems I can go as fast if not faster off the walls kicking free or back underwater--and these take much less energy." flutter kicking might be better for you If SDK is the obviously preferred approach, can anybody provide actual evidence--swimming science studies, for instance--that compare the same person's speed doing both? you need to do those studies on your own for me, I SDK 25 yards in 10.4 SFK 25 yards in 11.9 for me: SDK is much faster but there is the issue of speed, air & fatigue "is there some physical cause for why split-leg kicking should be intrinsically slower than legs-together kicking?" when the legs are spread there's more drag on sdk the legs are together so they are more streamlined "I'd like to know if the SDK choice is always (or almost always) a better one." it depends on you "is it sufficient to conclude that because most of the world's fastest swimmers do this, it necessarily means it's an optimal technique." it's an optimal technique for them, not necessarily you so far Dara doesn't SDK could it be that SDKs work great for some--but not so great for other body types? Does anyone know if submerged dolphin kicks are always better than submerged freestyle (or backstroke) kicks? I find fly kicks very tiring and slow for my particular body. It seems I can go as fast if not faster off the walls kicking free or back underwater--and these take much less energy. If SDK is the obviously preferred approach, can anybody provide actual evidence--swimming science studies, for instance--that compare the same person's speed doing both? Similarly, is there some physical cause for why split-leg kicking should be intrinsically slower than legs-together kicking? Obviously, you have to do SDK on fly and *** pullouts (if you are going to do any kick at all.) But for free and back, you still have a choice, and I'd like to know if the SDK choice is always (or almost always) a better one. I am wondering if it is sufficient to conclude that because most of the world's fastest swimmers do this, it necessarily means it's an optimal technique. Dara Torres, for her part, does not use SDK in her sprints. Is this just a case of old dogs having trouble with new tricks? Or could it be that SDKs work great for some--but not so great for other body types?

"is there some physical cause for why split-leg kicking should be intrinsically slower than legs-together kicking?" when the legs are spread there's more drag on sdk the legs are together so they are more streamlined In addition to drag, I am able to involve more many muscles (ie the core) in dolphin kick compared to flutter kick. In comparing my two kicks, flutter doesn't come anywhere close to dolphin in either sheer speed or endurance. Perhaps the main difficulty some have is getting all those muscles to act in concert (timing). And I hate to keep beating the flexiblity drum, but that might contribute too: having the flexibility to transfer energy down from the "powerhouse" through the legs in a wave-like fashion.

In addition to drag, I am able to involve more many muscles (ie the core) in dolphin kick compared to flutter kick. In comparing my two kicks, flutter doesn't come anywhere close to dolphin in either sheer speed or endurance. Perhaps the main difficulty some have is getting all those muscles to act in concert (timing). And I hate to keep beating the flexiblity drum, but that might contribute too: having the flexibility to transfer energy down from the "powerhouse" through the legs in a wave-like fashion. Me too! My flutter kick without a board is mediocre. Much faster dolphin kicking. Perhaps it all comes down to flexibility and core strength. I will say I get the most bang for my buck off the start. Air and fatigue are more problematic as the race goes on. What kind of "strength training" is Dennis concluding is necessary for becoming proficient at SDKs?

Thanks very much to everyone for your input. A couple other quirky observations: with fins on, I actually prefer butterfly kicking--it seems easier and faster than freestyle; with my little inflexible feet, however, the equation seems to shift. If core recruitment/timing is the key, why would artificially larger feet make a difference in fatigue? kicking dolphin on my back--i.e., backstroke turns and starts--is much easier for me than kicking dolphin on my stomach. I know Ande has mentioned that you should find your best body position for SDKs--back, stomach, or side. Leila Vaziri, 50 m backstroke world record holder, kicks on her side, I am pretty sure. why does body position in the water--face/torso up, sideways, or down--affect fatigue? (My legs get more tired in the 200 backstroke than any other race--most of the kicks here are one legs at a time kicks. Why should freestyle kicking on you back be so much more tiring than freestyle kicking on your stomach? And why dolphin kicks follow the opposite pattern?) in terms of drag, have there been any plume style studies where SDK and SFK have been measured in the same person? (The swimmer would hold a rope and kick against a measured current, and a strain gauge of some sort could tell which kick created more drag--or something like this. At the ICAR plume for an article once, they had me do something like this with Bermuda shorts and then an Aquablade to measure drag.) Why would two legs acting independently create more drag than two legs together? Is it merely the shared surface area being reduced (in the pressed together thighs, for instance)? I mean intuitively, it seems like a bit less drag, but I am not sure this has been proven Ande, in terms of your 10.4 for 25 yards, that's amazing. In our Y league up here, we actually have 25s in each event as a race. The fastest times with full swimming, in the 18-29 age groups, are in the 9's and low 10s. Maybe we should add kicking as a new race event? It seems to be the consensus here that proficiency at SDK will be one of the many sine qua nons of future swimming glory. It would be cool to see what the world's best swimmers are doing in, say, 2208. I wonder what innovations will have occurred by then. I wonder what Johnny Weismuller, in his full body wool suit, would have thought of today's greats?

swimmmers shouldn't SDK because Ian, Michael, Natalie and Ryan do they should only SDK if it's faster and better for them the issues to address are: speed vs the need to breathe vs fatigue It takes some training to figure out if you should use SDK or not It takes a lot of training to use SDK well, especially for 100s and 200's the end result is having a kick count strategy for each race. If a swimmer has a fast SDK, they can SDK under the surface turbulence and currents till they get to calmer water If you flutter kick faster than you SDK then use your flutter kick. If neither are that great, push off hard, pop up and start swimming. Ande As Dennis wrote...just because the pros do it...doesn't mean it's for everyone. As a part time parent coach, I have had my doubts about our younger age groupers doing them. Often times they get blown away in a sprint race by the other kids who get up and swim while they're still farting around under the surface. Until it (your SDK) gets faster than your swimming...why use it in a race? Many freestylers still favor flutter kicks of fury in short course pools. However...sooner or later when the rhythm is mastered...then it (SDK) becomes the 5th stroke. This is most evident in backstroke racing...where the dolphin kick seems to work very naturally. I don't agree that it's not worthwhile for a masters swimmer to try developing this new skill. Yes it takes up air...but consistent training will make it easier over time.

I wonder what percentage of masters successfully use (or even try to use) SDK? I know it's touted as a fad, but I frankly don't see that many masters using it in meets. Most age groupers don't do it effectively, as quicksilver notes. Maybe it is principally the province of the elite non-master? Jim: I think the back, tummy, or side SDK is an individual thing and is not necessarily an opposite pattern issue for everyone. I think I'm fastest on my stomach, but most others seem to like SDKs on their back. As for fins, that's individual too. I like dolphin kicking with fins or MF best as well. In fact, I think it's much better to use the MF than fins if you want to improve your core strength and SDK. But fins make me pretty speedy with flutter kick as well. (However, I don't use fins for kicking (except for the MF) because it makes my ankles too loose.)

I like the thought that SDKs might be something that are properly the province of the elite swimming gods. I guess it's kind of like watching professional golf on TV. If every weekend golfer felt obligated to mimic the pros, and take those crater-like divots Tiger, Phil, et al. use on seemingly every fairway shot, the nation's golf courses would soon become entirely grass-less. SDKs and gigantic ball--back-spinning divots: leave these to the elite! I think I now have got a take-home message I can live with!