Geochuck's: Kicking is a Total Waste of Time Thread

While there has been quite a big improvement in my kicking and (probably most importantly) a strengthening of my core and an increase in aerobic capacity as a direct result of kicking sets, I still fear that it hasn't helped me much in my swimming. I think I have got better at kicking with a board but haven't improved much in integrating that kick into my swimming stroke. I can really relate to this observation of Syd's - my kick has gone from worse to bad in isolation, following some months of forcing myself to do some kick in every workout. But on integration into a full stroke, it just uses up breath and I doubt I can swim appreciably quicker full stroke than pulling with a buoy (maybe slower over 300m and longer) . BTW, I ain't no sprinter - no fast twitchers to speak of!

Can't quite believe I somehow support Geochuck here + I have won many bets by kicking faster in Free than other people can swim - but this one really threw for a loop (love the last line of the blind path): TRAINING EMPHASIS ON KICKING DOES NOT IMPROVE FREE SWIMMING PERFORMANCE Konstantaki, M., & Winter, E. M. (2007). The effectiveness of a leg-kicking training program on performance and physiological measure of competitive swimmers. International Journal of Sports Science and Coaching, 2, 37-48. This study investigated the at .....] Tests like this are of course interesting to hear about, but.. a) is a test group of total 15 person representative at all of the swimming world? I would assume that a larger group would have been better b) What kind of swimmers were they? Were the even freestylers? c) What level? d) What were their "swimstyle"? Some swimmer are and will forevever be 2beat kickers.. with focus on strong stroke.. e) Did they also work on better combining their newly improved kick into normal swimming? Many questions.. I remember Anders Holmertz from Sweden. One of the best guys in 400m Free in the 80's and early 90's. He had no kick what-so-ever. Putting him on some extra kick focusing training would have been a complete waste of time - as he would never have been able to integrate it into his swimming. Once in a swedish championship, when he was winning with 20m he actually tried to switch to a 6beat kick for fun the last 25m.. and every one had a great time laughing at him.. and so I think he did as well! It does matter what your style is... I believe that if you are used to the 6beat kick THEN working on your kick will probably be beneficial.. but again.. we are all different.. For me - my 6 beat kick is the difference between heaven and hell. When the kick drops, well.. then its only downhill...

I guess we can nearly all agree the kickboard is a no, no. The last time I used a kickboard was in 1954. I totally agree. I threw out the board 20 years ago when I started back swimming with Masters (kinda pinching my neck a lot and causing problems, too.)

I guess we can nearly all agree the kickboard is a no, no. The last time I used a kickboard was in 1954. Well... unless the purpose is to have some time to either talk to your buddies or watch people walking by the pool!

I have a 6 beat kick that I usually use. I also use a 4 and a 2 beat kick, I have found they are interchangebale. My legs are always hi no matter how I kicked (I am a level floater). In distance swimming I did not want to consume oxygen when kicking so the legs were used as balancers. For me - my 6 beat kick is the difference between heaven and hell. When the kick drops, well.. then its only downhill...

My legs are also high, but if I want to swim really fast I need the support from my legs.. when I do the 200 (or .. did the 200.. many years ago), I always turned on the 6 beat extra hard the last 100 to do a negative split.. only using stroke would not have given me that speed..

I swam only marathon swims from 1963 until 1973. My first races on the marathon circuit I did avery strong six beat kick but the legs cramped up and I could not walk for several days after a race. So I changed the kicking style and started using the legs only for balance. When I was swimming 50m to 1500m In my youth races it was always a strong 6 beat kick. Now I only do 50s and 100s. I only do the 6 beat kick. I only practice kick during full stroke training.

I just wish someone could teach me how to integrate that kick into my swimming. For years I swam with a two beat crossover kick. I don't think it provided any forward propulsion at all. In fact I would go as far as to say I swam just as fast with a pull buoy as I did without. Recently I have been trying to change to a six beat kick. It feels so awkward and my legs seem to have no connection to my body at all. There seems to be no propulsion at all coming from the left leg and only every now and then do I seem to bite the water with my right foot. It is also exhausting and I can only manage 25m tops.:mad:

I just wish someone could teach me how to integrate that kick into my swimming. For years I swam with a two beat crossover kick. I don't think it provided any forward propulsion at all. In fact I would go as far as to say I swam just as fast with a pull buoy as I did without. Recently I have been trying to change to a six beat kick. It feels so awkward and my legs seem to have no connection to my body at all. There seems to be no propulsion at all coming from the left leg and only every now and then do I seem to bite the water with my right foot. It is also exhausting and I can only manage 25m tops.:mad: I believe flexibility in the ankle is very important. At least where I train I can see many people trying hard, but with their ankles not stretched. When I relax my ankles are completley stretched.. still with room for movment. If there is an angle of lets say 10-20 degrees and the ankles is very rigid, then it will probably not be so powerful. Just look how a fin move - stretched, but still flexible.

Syd there are some pretty fast swimmers who use a 2 beat kick. All the kicking in the world will not help put the 6 beat kick into place. This can only happen when you swim full stroke (my thoughts only), others may and are allowed to disagree. Why are you trying to count your beats, just kick and swim.