Hi I have had fairly bad case of biceps tendonitis for quite some time now and have not been able to swim. I have been doing kick sets every day for several weeks now, but realized that I wasn't _really_ doing the flutter kick in order to get more propulsion (otherwise I really don't move very much at all).
In any case, after reading these forums I decided to buy some Zoomers fins and started doing all my kicking with them for the past week. Initially I was quite happy with them (except blisters but I think I have solved that problem now). However, I have a concomitant knee problem (I went to an orthopod some time ago for it and he said by the physical exam it might be a medial meniscus issue - pain on the inside of my right knee - but since it was still relatively mild he was hesitant to do an MRI as surgery would not be something that would be considered at this point, which sounds reasonable to me) and I have noticed this week it has gotten worse (I did also stupidly sprint for my bus on Monday which I immediately felt caused some knee upset, and that certainly contributed a lot to it, but I'm still wondering about the Zoomers).
I know initially I did not feel the Zoomers aggravate my knee pain but now I'm not sure (although today I seem to have had more knee pain in general throughout the day so I'm not really sure if working out with them really added anything to it or if its just that my knee pain was still there when I was using them). In any case, I was wondering people's opinions about whether my increasing knee pain this week might be related to the Zoomers or perhaps simply to using them too much too soon? Anyone with knee problems noticed that Zoomers aggravate them? Are any other short fins better for knees or am I just stuck ineffectively kicking with no fins since I can't swim cuz of the shoulder probs?
Oh yeah I'm only doing flutter kick and I'm fairly sure I'm doing it correctly with the Zoomers (my legs are certainly straight and I am not kicking from the knees although I wonder if maybe I am locking them more than I should be perhaps).
Thanks
Misha
Former Member
In the short side clip it looks like you weren't keeping your ankles/feet/toes pointed, at some points the feet were in a standing-like right angle to the lower leg.
It is hard to tell from the videos but it looks like you might be kicking predominantly from the knee, it looks like most of the movement is occurring below the knee, with little bend at the hip and little visible movement of the upper leg. Have your new instructor check if this is the case. Look at the videos Ande posted in his SDK thread, the motion should be similar in flutter kick, just with alternating legs.
Do your knees break the surface when you kick on your back?
The propulsion in kicking comes from the forward movement much more than the backward motion regardless of whether you are on your front or back so I don't think the quad vs ham strength is the issue. Generally it is easier to kick water up into the air than it is to kick it down into the depths, so there is less resistance for your leg to push against. I don't know if 1.5 times slower is normal though.
I usually wear a sock when I wear fins because otherwise the skin rubs off my foot in one place or another, not blisters really but a problem. I like the short somewhat thick ones used for running for example. That's solved my problem unless I go kick crazy. I also find dolphin kicking causes less abrasion than flutter kicking and do more of the former.
With a good instructor you should make quick progress, good luck!
In the short side clip it looks like you weren't keeping your ankles/feet/toes pointed, at some points the feet were in a standing-like right angle to the lower leg.
It is hard to tell from the videos but it looks like you might be kicking predominantly from the knee, it looks like most of the movement is occurring below the knee, with little bend at the hip and little visible movement of the upper leg. Have your new instructor check if this is the case. Look at the videos Ande posted in his SDK thread, the motion should be similar in flutter kick, just with alternating legs.
Do your knees break the surface when you kick on your back?
The propulsion in kicking comes from the forward movement much more than the backward motion regardless of whether you are on your front or back so I don't think the quad vs ham strength is the issue. Generally it is easier to kick water up into the air than it is to kick it down into the depths, so there is less resistance for your leg to push against. I don't know if 1.5 times slower is normal though.
I usually wear a sock when I wear fins because otherwise the skin rubs off my foot in one place or another, not blisters really but a problem. I like the short somewhat thick ones used for running for example. That's solved my problem unless I go kick crazy. I also find dolphin kicking causes less abrasion than flutter kicking and do more of the former.
With a good instructor you should make quick progress, good luck!
See it's interesting b/c I'm sure you are right about my full stroke kick (although honestly in full stroke I really don't think there's much of a "kick" for me I move my legs but they don't propulse; the other day I noticed when I was trying to do full stroke with fins I realized the moment I stopped the stroke I actually just stopped kicking period) and the knees, but interestingly when I "flutter kick" just by itself I don't bend the knees at all (basically keep my legs straight).
I see in the SDK videos this is not the case, and I know that in this thread too I was told that locking knees is bad so I've been trying to not "lock them" lock them but then I guess I am either tempted to kick from the knee or just am not getting any sort of propulsion... I can't seem to figure out how to _both_ not keeping my legs absolutely straight and not kick from the knee.
I'll have to make sure when I kick on the back but I'm pretty sure no part of my legs including my knees breaks the surface when I kick on my back. Should something be?
Thanks
Misha
Of course the knees bend when you kick. The whole leg is involved, the ankles and the foot. From the hip down everthing is moving in a whipping action. Look at the flex in Klims foot action. Nothing is locked. video.google.ca/videoplay
You might try practicing dolphin kicking, that might give you better feedback on how to achieve propulsion and it's easier to think about and feel what you are doing when moving both legs in unison.
As George said, a proper kick is a sort of whipping action, you kick down with your knee first and then the foot, and the knee actually starts up again while the foot is going down (otherwise you will end up with a very deep kick). Think of the bend in the knee coming mostly from the downward movement of the knee rather than an upward movement of the foot. Your leg should be pretty much straight during the upward movement.
My understanding is that shoulder problems are not caused by fully extending but rather by attempting to catch and apply force at or near full extension. You may want to think about full extension as a streamlining strategy rather than as a way to extend the range of your pull.
Shoulder issues can be very swimmer-specific, does full extension cause shoulder issues for you?
Hi guys,
long time no post I know. I had a quick question - I've been working with one swim instructor but have also tried another while one was on vacation and I have a question. The first instructor advised me to not do a full reach out with my arm when I enter the water as this can cause shoulder probs, but the second instructor said I _should_ do a full reach and that as long as my body rolls while I am reaching it is better to do a full reach. I feel like the second instructor is incorrect, but I'm not sure. Any comments/opinions? There are other factors influencing my decision b/w the instructors (pool, availability) but I don't want to get taught the wrong thing.
Thank you
Misha
My understanding is that shoulder problems are not caused by fully extending but rather by attempting to catch and apply force at or near full extension. You may want to think about full extension as a streamlining strategy rather than as a way to extend the range of your pull.
Shoulder issues can be very swimmer-specific, does full extension cause shoulder issues for you?
I guess for me it felt like it did at least on Thursday. Anyway I think the issue is I trust one of the swim instructors more than the other prob because that one has had shoulder probs herself and seems a bit more qualified I don't know I guess that's important too. Thanks for your feedback.
Misha
