Hi I have had fairly bad case of biceps tendonitis for quite some time now and have not been able to swim. I have been doing kick sets every day for several weeks now, but realized that I wasn't _really_ doing the flutter kick in order to get more propulsion (otherwise I really don't move very much at all).
In any case, after reading these forums I decided to buy some Zoomers fins and started doing all my kicking with them for the past week. Initially I was quite happy with them (except blisters but I think I have solved that problem now). However, I have a concomitant knee problem (I went to an orthopod some time ago for it and he said by the physical exam it might be a medial meniscus issue - pain on the inside of my right knee - but since it was still relatively mild he was hesitant to do an MRI as surgery would not be something that would be considered at this point, which sounds reasonable to me) and I have noticed this week it has gotten worse (I did also stupidly sprint for my bus on Monday which I immediately felt caused some knee upset, and that certainly contributed a lot to it, but I'm still wondering about the Zoomers).
I know initially I did not feel the Zoomers aggravate my knee pain but now I'm not sure (although today I seem to have had more knee pain in general throughout the day so I'm not really sure if working out with them really added anything to it or if its just that my knee pain was still there when I was using them). In any case, I was wondering people's opinions about whether my increasing knee pain this week might be related to the Zoomers or perhaps simply to using them too much too soon? Anyone with knee problems noticed that Zoomers aggravate them? Are any other short fins better for knees or am I just stuck ineffectively kicking with no fins since I can't swim cuz of the shoulder probs?
Oh yeah I'm only doing flutter kick and I'm fairly sure I'm doing it correctly with the Zoomers (my legs are certainly straight and I am not kicking from the knees although I wonder if maybe I am locking them more than I should be perhaps).
Thanks
Misha
Former Member
Perhaps the slow motion is throwing me off and I am completely off base but my guess at what you should work on is smoother integration of your arms, roll, and kick. The relative timing of your arms and roll varies somewhat from one stroke to the next. I could be totally wrong but the impression I get is that you are concentrating on moving your arms through the S pull pattern, which I think George is correct is too exaggerated.
What I would suggest you try is working on integrating your arm recovery and pull with your body roll. One way to do that is to do a drill where you add a short glide phase to each arm pull and really concentrate on arm extension in front - don't just extend the arm forward but push the whole shoulder forward as if you are reaching for something on a high shelf just out of reach. Concentrate on extending out front at the same time you are finishing with the other arm and glide for about a second with one arm fully extended and the other remaining at your hip - this should give you a good feel for how the arms and body roll can integrate together smoothly. After the glide start your catch and the recovery of the other arm at the same time. To go to full stroke just eliminate the glide.
Don't think about following an S pattern, think about moving your arm into a position where your whole forearm is perpendicular to the direction you are traveling in, sometimes called Early Vertical Forearm but the forearm doesn't have to be vertical just perpendicular to the direction you are swimming. Think about getting your elbow out to the side early, the S component is just part of this action.
See youtube.com/watch
Anyway, just something to try, see if it works for you.
I am by no means an expert. But on the video, it looks to me like your flutter kick may be too wide and that you are not kicking from your hips. If you think of narrowing the range of your kick and think of kicking from your hip (as opposed to straightening your knee), maybe that would help?
FYI, I have been doing a lot of kick sets lately as I'm just coming back after several months away from the pool. I also have a problematic knee. Kicking with zoomers shouldn't hurt. I only kick with them and sometimes will do several sets of 500 . . . I kick on my back and use the zoomers to help me feel the kick from my hip and to help stretch my ankles. It's amazing how much flexibility you can lose when you stop swimming for awhile.
Thanks ahead of time for all your suggestions on my stroke and particularly how it might be aggravating my biceps tendonitis! :)
The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal.
In this video you drop the elbow during the catch phase, video.google.com/videoplay
Most problems with the body are caused by improper technique. Go see the doctor maybe a good idea but as my doctor told me don't swim. It did not cure anything what I did was change how I swam. The secret is to prevent the injury. I see many reasons why he has problems. Eliminate stress in the stroke it will eliminate pain.
The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal.
The video looks pretty good. I'm not sure that technical analysis will improve your tendonitis condition??! How about going to a nutritionist, and perhaps getting some massage or accupuncture. Rest until you heal.
And if you look at my posts earlier I have been to the orthopedist several times (doctor), was in PT for 6 weeks which I still do daily at home (resistive bands/light weights and ice daily) and about 2 months ago my ortho gave me a steroid shot since PT was not helping and the shot seemed to help quite a bit.
Now I _only_ get pain the day after I swim (even as little as 6 laps) hence why I think the stroke correction might help. When I tried keeping my hands on the black line two days ago and swam a littleeeeeee bit (under 10 laps I believe) also with the swimmers snorkel to focus completely on the stroke my arm seemed better the next day than had I done my usual stroke.
Misha
EDIT: Sorry JMiller I actually never mentioned this stuff before. Luckily my school gives excellent insurance so I have ortho/PT for $25 copay (which still added up but this is still relatively cheap compared to how much they charge and it is a PPO not HMO so no referral).
A dropped elbow during the pull phase refers to a failure to keep your forearm perpendicular to the water during the pull. The most extreme example is a dog-paddle-like arm position where the elbow is leading the hand. If you are standing on deck demonstrating the pull movement and drop your elbow so that your forearm is not parallel to the ground you are demonstrating a dropped elbow.
A dropped elbow during the pull phase refers to a failure to keep your forearm perpendicular to the water during the pull. The most extreme example is a dog-paddle-like arm position where the elbow is leading the hand. If you are standing on deck demonstrating the pull movement and drop your elbow so that your forearm is not parallel to the ground you are demonstrating a dropped elbow.
Wow, I clearly did not understand this concept at all then. I think this might be a clue (among others) as to why I developed shoulder problems. Thanks a lot for the clarification.
Misha
p.s. here are some full speed videos btw. I can very very clearly see the weaving back & forth here:
video.google.com/videoplayvideo.google.com/videoplayvideo.google.com/videoplayvideo.google.com/videoplay
Thanks guys for all your suggestions. I will try some tomorrow night and let you know how it goes.
Misha
P.S. Btw would someone mind explaining not "dropping the elbow" to me? Does it literally refer to keeping the elbow _in front of_ the hand (in the direction in which the swimmer is travelling) during the stroke (like "reaching over a barrel" I guess)? Just want to make sure I have this concept right as it seems something that can lead to shoulder probs. Thanks.
So I've still been trying to work on modifying my technique, although I have a hard time doing it with so little yardage but have made the plunge and paid to hire an instructor for a few lessons hopefully they can help.
Meanwhile I noticed something interesting about my kicking (besides the interesting fact that the moment I start my arm stroke I almost stop kicking entirely which I have been working to correct as well; my "flutter kick" by itself I believe is actually quite different from the swimming videos as I don't really propulsively kick in full swimming at all).
In any case, what I noticed is that when I flutter kick on my back it seems to take almost 1.5 times as long to do 25 yd (won't post the horrible time) vs when I do it on my stomach. I was wondering is there a common flutter technique flaw that could explain this (maybe splashing is giving me propulsion), or is it simply that my hamstrings are weaker than my quads?
Thanks
Misha
p.s. And interestingly contrary to what seems to be true for everyone else the Zura Alphas _do_ give me blisters (and I have been very careful about working them in and currently only do slow-medium kicking in Zuras and all my sprint work finless). Just fyi. Although I think in all fairness it is _fewer_ blisters than the Zoomers did.
