How much does a good kick contribute?

In his book, The Science of Swimming, Doc Counsilman devotes several pages to the kick Thanks for that post... You know I was thinking more about this question during my swim tonight, and a few concepts came to mind... First I should quantify my experiences by saying, I wasn't the fastest that ever was, but I have swam and obsessed about swimming my whole life... and I still do... That doesn't give me a PHD in bio-mechanics, but I'm not sure how else to explain these experiences, other than to just go ahead and say it... I've been studying some videos of top swimmers, and seem to be able to explain what I'm seeing pretty well... anyways, enough digression... The thing about the kick, Like the Doc said, it depends on the event, the abilities of the athlete, etc. and the various points within the event/stroke. Fly for example requires dolphin action, but a smaller amplitude and higher frequency is needed to match the tempo of the arms... If you over-kick and have too large of an amplitude the streamline and undulation will be compromised, and you'll swim slower than your potential. After watching Phelps again, that is where he is very masterful in his lower body action... His kick has the perfect amplitude, very effective, but I'd argue that it has a relatively lower output of energy compared to his counter-parts. It's not a forced motion by any stretch of the imagination, instead he seems to go deeper with his head and torso, while the amplitude of his kick is tighter and closer to the surface. Okay, and backstroke, the kick goes from under-water dolphin to flutter to under-water dolphin to flutter, over and over depending on the distance... The thing is, the requirements for the kick are varied at different points through-out this event... The kick oscillates between low amplitude dolphin and a very high frequency flutter, ideally at an even higher frequency and lower amplitude after breaking the surface. You see what I'm trying to say here, I'll not go into breastroke or free, perhaps other members can elaborate. (breastroke is not my strength) The point is, the skill-sets required for top swimming performance, in terms of the kick, alternates throughout the different phases of a race. You can't just get an a kick-board and hammer out 10,000 meters and expect to reach those goals... You need to be able to switch from one type of kick to the other without missing a beat. This requires a variety of strategies designed specificly to reach these alternating race modes. Jonathan Miller PS If your weakness is a range of motion limitation, then that is something that could be targeted out of the water. See this link, forums.usms.org/showpost.php Happy Swimming,

Liz...great question! The best analogy I've had in recent years was to kick from my chest....your point about kicking from the knee is great because so many swimmers do this and it really is a waste of energy. The other thing is depth of the feet/legs in the kick....I've tried to change in the last two years to a "higher" kick after seing guys like Bousquet and Cielo with their massive "thunder kicks" where you can actually see the feet clearly above the surface of the water...

If you are kicking higher, do you have a tendency to kick more up, then down and lose some of the force. I have a decent kick, but do get told to think about kicking more forward than back to even it out.

Glen, although I have no research that can back me up I have to say that in my opinion the sport and specifically kicking has evolved since his study. I again point to Ian Thorpe and his ability to hold a powerful 6 beat kick over 400m, something that at the time of Doc was I believe unheard of....but in this day in age almost a necessity to compete in the middle distance freestyle events.

A modest goal, if you are interested: every season add one additional kick off the walls. Practice it on EVERY SINGLE SET that you do. Do that for several seasons until you are happy (or hit 15m every time). You'll see a difference. Great advise.

i was talking with eddie reese the other day watching a kick set and he said the fastest flutter kickers splash a lot when they are kicking with a board and when they're swimming freestyle fast ande Liz...great question! The best analogy I've had in recent years was to kick from my chest....your point about kicking from the knee is great because so many swimmers do this and it really is a waste of energy. The other thing is depth of the feet/legs in the kick....I've tried to change in the last two years to a "higher" kick after seing guys like Bousquet and Cielo with their massive "thunder kicks" where you can actually see the feet clearly above the surface of the water...

Is it the kick or the arm stroke that helps most with the improvement in time. I still think the big front end drive is where all speed comes from. Not that little motor (legs and kick). Hey guys...I never at any time said that kicking provided MORE of the speed/power than the arms/core....what I'm challenging people to consider is that the kick now may be more like 15%-20% vs. the 5%-10% back in the 60's, 70's.... I mean look at this and I challenge anyone debating this point the next time you swim a 200/400 try and hold that kick.....if you train that way you can... www.youtube.com/watch

george likes to diss kicking, back in his day swimmers could get by with a weak kick, wasn't Jonty Skinner was a 2 beat kicker, he broke the world record in the 100 fr in 1976. I don't believe a weak or slow kicker has held it since. today's world class swimmers tend to be powerful fast kickers they train it and USE IT in competition we're seeing most 400 swimmers use a 6 beat kick and even a few 1,500 swimmers Some of the fastest swimmers can SDK as fast or faster than they swim freestyle or they reach their crossover point / break out point later allowing them to take more SDK's off each wall before breaking out since their arms are streamlined during their SDK, they were at rest when they start using their arms, they can take more powerful pulls because they don't have to take as many strokes to get across the pool if you watch Ian Crocker's 100 scy fly at the finals of the 2007 American Shortcourse Championships He dives in does about 12 small rapid SDK's, takes 5 strokes, his first 25 is done hits the wall and turns takes 12 sdks then 5 strokes next 25 is done takes 12 sdks 5 strokes his 75 is done then he takes 12 sdks 6 strokes and his race is done he also has a very flat fly, not much amplitude "...if you train that way you can..." that's the key ande Hey guys...I never at any time said that kicking provided MORE of the speed/power than the arms/core....what I'm challenging people to consider is that the kick now may be more like 15% - 20% vs. the 5% -10% back in the 60's, 70's.... I mean look at this and I challenge anyone debating this point the next time you swim a 200/400 try and hold that kick.....if you train that way you can... www.youtube.com/watch

From my perspective, the kick adds a lot. But my challenge lies in integrating my pull into my kick and not letting my kick dominate my stroke. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned here is kicking from the hip rather than the knee. Has there been any good discussion about that? There's been a lot of talk about kicking more sets . . . how do you make sure you're kicking better? Just swimming more incorrectly doesn't seem like it would help to me. I guess I'm focusing on this because after taking a several month hiatus from swimming (injury & work related) when I started back my coach told me that I'm bending my left knee very slightly.

Is it the kick or the arm stroke that helps most with the improvement in time. I still think the big front end drive is where all speed comes from. Not that little motor (legs and kick).