Dara Torres-Amazing

How many relay Olympic medals do you have? I have so many individual arguing golds I don't need swimming medals. But if going fast makes you right, then I guess I know who is right between us, eh? (Even if that makes me more wrong than a lot of other folks on the thread.) As to why I am "determined to belittle"? A little counterpoint to the overly optimistic demands I adore her perhaps.

So she dragged ass and made her teammates pick up the slack?Much like Jenny (The Slacker) Thompson, all 8 of her Olympic gold’s were on relays, and only one measly silver and bronze in individual events. And Jenny’s Bronze was shared with Dara. For that matter 5 of Spitz’s 9 gold’s were for relays.

From The Associated Press: If people were whispering behind Torres’ back when she was 33, imagine what they might say if he makes it to the Olympics in her 40s? Looking to cut off any rumors before they get started, she went to USA Swimming and asked to be subjected to extra testing, including blood work, in hopes of showing that she’s totally clean. In the past six weeks, Torres has been tested three times. “It’s a pain,” she said, “but it’s worth it for all the naysayers out there. Here are all my drug tests and they’re all negative. Those guys can say what they want, but here are the facts.” Let's drop it now, please. That's more than sufficient for me.

Cripes,...... you don't need to be a "player" to offer a qualified opinion on this subject. Thank you. I was just about to make this same point. I don't see how anyone's times are relevant to the topic.

Doping questions aside, I was at the IU Natatorium last night when she swam. It was spellbinding, watching her fly down the first 50, flip ahead of the others and then keep it up. I hope she's clean, because being there to see that swim was absolutely magnificent. BTW, I thought it great that she was applauded just as loud as Phelps when she was introduced and even louder when she finished first (poor guy, everyone was disappointed he *only* set a US record!)

SCYFreestyler: Sure, let's see what the tests have to say and give the test to all of the final 8 swimmers in the finals. Why not? Why not in cycling or anywhere else in sports. Hey, if everyone is clean, why not? I had a high security clearance in a former job and I took one without offense. My bet is the results would be shocking to say the least. I believe quite a few of the top athletes in many sports are not clean.

Skip, For practical purposes, my 54.3 last summer is the same time as Dara's 54.4. Note, I was 51.1 back in 1984. That's a 3.2 second spread, and it almost killed me last summer. It was a really ugly swim. My yards times are similar for my age .... 43.9 in college and 47 low in my 40s. I'm not sure I understand your point. Don't you find it interesting that Susan Von Der Lippe (i.e Rapp) a multiple Olympic team member *** in individual events *** is currently not able to final or place in the top 3 at US nationals let alone win. Susan's talent and efforts are startling for her age (i.e. 1:12 100m *** made cuts for trials) ...... but she does not beat the best men her age in the same event. There is a significant comparative leap that Dara has made with these swims in my opinion. John Smith

Skip, Cripes,...... you don't need to be a "player" to offer a qualified opinion on this subject. You just have to PAY ATTENTION and think with your mind not your heart. I'll be honest with you, at the expense of my reputation as the most irritating masters swimmer, I will tell you my opinion. I lean toward the article's conclusion. The evidence is indeed circumstantial, but you can not deny that the drug testing performed these days is lagging and insufficient as clearly evidenced in the sport of cycling. Sorry Skip, seems like we've seen and heard about too much drug crap the last 15 years in this sport. It is disillusioning. All 3 of my children (14,12,8) swim competitively now. I have taught them that supplements and drugs beyond mere vitamins and protein powder are flat out cheating. I am confident they will not act foolishly in their future swimming career. I can not say that about a growing percentage of young swimmers who begin with lessor items as Creatine in highschool and expand from there in college and beyond. Balco was real..... no one on talked about it on this thread until the whistle was blown. No one knew about The Clear, THG, IGF-1, HGH and other designer steroids until recent years. How do we know that there isn't another Balco out there or another THG equivalent.............. we just don't. Note........ Paul is much more dipolmatic in his approach to the subject..... but don't think he doesn't have a strong opinion. Let me ask you a tough question now, Skip........ Do you think there are any top level Masters Swimmers who take human growth hormone, testosterone or other hardcore supplements ? Bad enough to cheat at the real thing (i.e. US Nationals)...... how pathetic and desperate for attention do you think it would be for a Masters swimmer to take these drugs? ........ :-) My god I wish I started this thread. I would win the "Most Controversial Thread" of the year award hands down. John Smith Mr Goodsmith: Please don't compare Cycling to Swimming. Have more faith then that. At the last two World Championships there was not one infraction or failed drug test that was adminstered by the WADA and FINA. That does not mean that everything is perfect and there are those who slip thru the cracks but honestly when you follow the Tour de France and see the results of that I can honestly say that Swimming has not reached those heights. Its not perfect either but way better than that. About Masters swimmers taking illegal supplements we have discussed that on other threads and its possible that swimmers could be doing it but again its all speculation. About the guy being a player on the subject what I meant is what gives him the right to make these accusations? What is his background to do this? He is really slamming someone without any proof. If he had some reasonable proof, we could give some credability to his accusations, but he does not, so its just speculation and to me that is meaningless.

However John Smith and Rich Saeger are not (I assume) swimming full-time as Dara is. What could they do if they quit working and focused on swimming full-time? I don't think they could do what Dara has done, but then again, as talented as they are, they are not Dara Torres. Careful Kirk..... take a look at Rich's pedigree in the sport. He was as good or better than Dara in his day. Rich is a good comparison for Dara. They both made free relays on the Olympic team in their day. Rich is the "real" thing and he was a multilple national team qualifier. I on the other hand was just another "John Smith" on deck at nationals with a couple of 3rd, 4ths and 7th place finishes to my name. Many test negative in the sport of cycling.......... doesn't seem to mean much anymore does it. John Smith

Paul Evil Smith has stated that until Dara has failed a drug test that its pointless to speculate. I don't ever recall saying that...I've had serious doubts (and expressed them) about a number of swimmers (USS & Masters) but have personally never witnessed anyone cheating. Interesting that today while I was coaching an Olympic teammate of Dara's was at practice who also happens to be good friends with Jenny & Amy. Her position was also one of skepticism mainly because she saw all 3 of these girls go thru sever physical transformation over a short period of time leading up to Trails.....coincidentally they all seemed to do so while "out of competition" and most likely not being tested...however once again not first hand knowledge. John.....glad to see you have finished moving, finished a good git of remodeling and found time to come back and fan the flames here....God forbid you might actually be getting back in the pool as well?