Dara Torres-Amazing

I don't see how you can possibly argue that winning only relay medals is as good as winning individual ones. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but that is not the question. Anyway, you might want to check out who began the personal attacks. I never claimed relay medals and individual medals were the same, but you seemed to knock her for "only" having won relay golds. I think making the Olympic team is a huge accomplishment and I'd take a relay medal of any color. Relay medals to me show the depth of the country and take four (to eight) people to win - no one can really slack. I feel like I was personally attacked first and certainly more viciously. I think we should ALL drop the personal attacks. This is all opinion based afterall. No one should be told they are an idiot for believing what they want.

SCYfreestyler, No one has ever done this in swimming. She is the first. If you don't like the Rich Saeger comparison.... then consider the Susan Vonder Lippe (Rapp) comparison. She's a multilple olympic team member as well. Sluggo8: Dara is won of the better female sprinters this country has produced..... but I would never say she is on of the "most gifted " swimmers. Those kinds of adjectives are reserved for individuals like Tracy Caulkins, Mary T., and Janet Evans. John Smith Mr. Smith my return argument would be that none of those three swam sprints or were at least true sprinters. I think the sprints are the hardest to win and dominate. Tracy Caulkins is in a league of her own, one I think Katie Hoff has the potentital to be in as well. Mary T is also unreal. If she could replicate her times she could be on the team, too. She's a couple years older than Dara. Janet was amazingly talented too. She was a true animal. The way she trained and swam is just amazing. I do think sprinting is entirely different though. While I certainly wouldn't bet my life that Dara is clean. She is enormously talented and seems to come under suspicion everytime she swims. I'd like to give her the benefit of the doubt. Until I see or hear about a positive drug test I'll stand by my beliefs.

I never claimed relay medals and individual medals were the same, but you seemed to knock her for "only" having won relay golds. I think making the Olympic team is a huge accomplishment and I'd take a relay medal of any color. Relay medals to me show the depth of the country and take four (to eight) people to win - no one can really slack. My point is that you can't achieve wunderkind status on relay medals. So I find the "she was so awesome, of course she can stay awesome" argument poor. I feel like I was personally attacked first and certainly more viciously. Because I questioned her medals, you got all "how many medals do you have?" I just used your own logic against you. If you don't like it, don't do it to other people. I think we should ALL drop the personal attacks. This is all opinion based afterall. No one should be told they are an idiot for believing what they want. What if I believe that thinking she is not doping makes someone an idiot? (Hypothetically, I mean.)

My point is that you can't achieve wunderkind status on relay medals. So I find the "she was so awesome, of course she can stay awesome" argument poor. Because I questioned her medals, you got all "how many medals do you have?" I just used your own logic against you. If you don't like it, don't do it to other people. What if I believe that thinking she is not doping makes someone an idiot? (Hypothetically, I mean.) You have lived in New York too long ...

That would speak volumes about you as a person. I think you missed the joke.

You have lived in New York too long ... Is it the cynicism or the standing up for myself part? Or the fast walking? The entertainment in arguing? The obvious rhetorical brilliance? The fact that I get better insults from the eighty-year-olds on the subway? God, I am so confused.

Since we have only scratched the surface on eff Is this really true? Only scratched the surface? I thought technique and efficiency were a huge focus now? I guess just because her feats are superhuman doesn't necessarily make them humanly impossible. There could theoretically be genetic outliers. But even the doc says it's not possible. Most of the super fit people I know look amazing, but yet still notice ever so slight diminutions in strength and "ability" as they age. They also report that they do not recover from injuries as quickly or are more likely to incur injuries. This is, however, all anecdotal. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, folks, whether we are a player or not, whether we are fast or slow, or rich or poor, or whatever.

I think we've all been burned too many times on this type of scenario. Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. Maybe she is the 1 out of 4 billion or so who can do it and be the first ever and more power to her. John Elway might be an example, although he never retired. Dale Ernhardt might be an example, although he died trying to keep up with the young ones (sorry, I live in Charlotte, have to throw in some Nascar). Maybe a case could be made for Muhammed Ali and George Forman, if you choose to put faith in boxing. Roger Clemens is a potential example, he's pretty awesome. But, the fact remains, there are carcasses of 40 something former elites all over the place (Barkley, Jordan, Randy Johnson, Spitz, Stud). As she continues her incredible odyssey in the next year, don't come back all disenchanted when she says she uses "alternative, ground breaking training methods." That's your code word should you hear it. As to little punk Stud, if I can figure out how to ride my new TRI BIKE (there you go Smiths), I'm gonna find him and run him over - shouldn't be hard given his average speed of movement.

Is it the cynicism or the standing up for myself part? Or the fast walking? The entertainment in arguing? The obvious rhetorical brilliance? The fact that I get better insults from the eighty-year-olds on the subway? God, I am so confused. I'm all for agreeing to disagree and was trying to get away from personal attacks and go back to the basis of the thread. If you think I'm going to sit by and get attacked you have another thing coming. I am entitled to think what I want to think that in no way gives you the right to insult me for being optimistic. I was not the only one that asked how many Olympic medals do you have - which I intended to speak more to the fact that Dara has 9 of them - rather than to start a let's compare times thread. I question people that all of a sudden pull of amazing times more than those that have always had tons of talent and swum fast. I believe in innocent until proven guilty especially in instances like these. I do not think that she is doping for plenty of reasons, and even if I had no real thoughts to back it up who cares. I get think what I want. PS - it's the cynicism. I walk fast.

I think we've all been burned too many times on this type of scenario. Thus far, in this thread, no one has yet to name a single athlete that has done or is doing what she is either doing or may be about to do, not a single one. Maybe she is the 1 out of 4 billion or so who can do it and be the first ever and more power to her. John Elway might be an example, although he never retired. Dale Ernhardt might be an example, although he died trying to keep up with the young ones (sorry, I live in Charlotte, have to throw in some Nascar). Maybe a case could be made for Muhammed Ali and George Forman, if you choose to put faith in boxing. Roger Clemens is a potential example, he's pretty awesome. But, the fact remains, there are carcasses of 40 something former elites all over the place (Barkley, Jordan, Randy Johnson, Spitz, Stud). As she continues her incredible odyssey in the next year, don't come back all disenchanted when she says she uses "alternative, ground breaking training methods." That's your code word should you hear it. As to little punk Stud, if I can figure out how to ride my new TRI BIKE (there you go Smiths), I'm gonna find him and run him over - shouldn't be hard given his average speed of movement. Geek, how many have really tried?