Dara Torres-Amazing

Clemens is pure. :rofl: You are on good form, George! I think he's admitted certain impurities too. (He is just not getting good legal advice. It was a mistake to bring his Texas lawyer to DC.) As for Dara, I haven't ripped her. Huh? I pretty much agree with Gull's analysis, and think she's probably an outlier and works incredibly hard. But that doesn't mean I have to get all starry eyed and gooey and pretend PEDs don't exist.

Never said he was a sexist...I have read his posts before....just kind of wondering why he brought that up as a point and what it had to do with the subject being discussed. Heck if anything the fact that she is a mom can be used to support the fact that she is clean. Would you put that garbage in your system knowing you would pass it directly on to your kid? Not many women would that I know. Well, I have been told I'm not so good with reading comprehension, but I thought I read you questioning whether Geek might have something "against women in general?" No, I can't think of many women who would intentionally harm their child. But some people take crazy risks with their health and life (e.g., FloJo).

And by the way....Barry still has not been proven guilty....suspicious absolutely....but not guilty. Tracy, this will be my last post on this subject...and you quote above is the perfect time for me to exit. You've twisted a hell of a lot that some of us have tried to discuss here...in subtle ways that remind me of my radical friends on the right and left of the political spectrum...always avoiding the specific's of what is being questioned and immediately going to the easy route of accusing us who question as attacking...pretty sad. Bonds case and your support of the fact that he was never proven to be guilty in spite of the fact he did admit to using the clear and the cream (sports.espn.go.com/.../story, the incredible physiological changes he went thru and the simple fact that you believe with all your heart as George does that will a little bit of stretching, the latest fad training regime, and $100k a year in over the counter supplements anyone over 40 can achieve the level of success Dara has...I remind you the success comes after 7 years off and from somebody who'd times were at the elite end of the spectrum as far as human performance for swimming...not a masters swimmer trying to dial in some better technique are all wonderful in the realm of hero worship...but sadly "blind" in the real world we live in. Wonderful things are done in sports everyday...break thru's occur occasinally, you choose to accept blindly this is one of them and attack those of us who are tired of seeing cheating going on at every level of sport. I hope Dara never tests negative, I hope we have witnessed a profound breakthrough in sports...but I refuse to be intimidated out of questioning feats such as this by anyone and sorry Jim but I/we who love the sport we put so much time in won't "give it a break" because the real world needs people who don't blindly worship others and are willing to ask hard questions. By the way regarding McGuire, Andro was illegal per the DEA but not by MLB...nice eh? oh I guess breaking a federal law doesn't matter as long as baseball doesn't care!

And by the way....Barry still has not been proven guilty....suspicious absolutely....but not guilty. Now, come on! Bonds gains 50 pounds of muscle after the age of 35 in the Era of Steroids and tests positive for both steroids and amphetamines. Yeah, he's a real hero. There may be no "proven guilty" with Bonds. He got immunity for testifying and can now only be prosecuted for perjury. Still, I have no problem with concluding he's guilty of using steroids and cheating. And why is expressing an opinion or thought about his guilt (or someone else's suspicious conduct) a big deal? We're not held to a criminal standard of proof in forming opinions. And, please, let's not trot out the old slander and libel nonsense! Geek may be many things (another 25K swim warrior?), but being a sexist is NOT one of them. Personally, I think parents need to go easy on the professional athlete as hero and role model.

...or is just against women in general? Do you know the circumstances of her life? Passing judgement on someone else is not the way to make a point. You obviously have read nothing I've ever posted about Title IX or women in sports or the fact I have two daughters. That's a low blow and not even remotely close to what I have said. I could care less if she's a woman or a man, I'd be skeptical either way. She's not heroic in my definition of the word hero. It's a term tossed about too lightly these days. She has a single minded dedication, both physically and financially, to her goal. She won't be a hero to my daughters, no way. She is potentially inspirational but hero is a big big stretch. Of course, some called Marion Jones heroic also, go figure. And wasn't Barry Bonds once heroic? How about Roger Clemens and Floyd Landis? Be careful tossing that word around for sports figures.

That statement implies that she is cheating or hiding something from everyone, at least from your point of view. That wasn't my intention. It was a poorly worded way of saying that it is impossible to prove a negative.

Like others on here have said already.....How many others have tried the regimen that she is doing? Not many from what I know......so who is to say that the Smiths, Fort, Jeff or anybody else in here could not have some surprising results using her formula. Every record breaker in the books in every sport technically is an anomaly, because every last one of them has done something that NO ONE else has ever done in the history of that sport. And just why is it a fallacy......there are people swimming these days that are swimming times faster today than they ever did growing up. Read the article on Jeff Barrett And Geek.....just where do you start your comparison to what she has done? Oh that's right from the point of view that she must be dirty right? Good starting point for an objective opinion. An objective opinion starts with the assumption that you don't know the outcome....let the facts steer you to the truth....show me one fact or a bit of something to prove me that you are right! I can point you to a whole lot of factors that have led me in the direction I believe.

Actually, yes she is an anomaly! But if she is an anomaly.....so are a whole lot of other Masters Swimmers! In which case they are not anomalies. Maybe not to the extent she is... Maybe not? That's a bit of understatement.

Like others on here have said already.....How many others have tried the regimen that she is doing? Not many from what I know......so who is to say that the Smiths, Fort, Jeff or anybody else in here could not have some surprising results using her formula. I have read a lot about what she is doing. There is some interesting stuff but I wouldn't say the individual bits are "never been done" type of innovation. Putting them all together? Maybe there is some kind of synergy, I guess. I even bought a DVD of the meridian stretching method and tried the partner-less stretches a few times. I wasn't impressed, and that guy seems pretty flaky. Granted, I do not have the luxury of quitting my job, hiring a nanny and a support staff of coaches, personal trainers, stretchers, and masseurs. But I work out pretty much, have never taken an extended vacation from swimming, and can reproduce most times from my early 30s (granted, I was less into masters swimming back then). So I think I have a reasonable basis to predict what is POSSIBLE if I were chuck it all and train full time. I am 43 years old, and it is EXTREMELY unlikely that I can equal or better my college times even if I made it my life's mission. Believe me, it galls me to say it because I train much smarter and know more about swimming and competing than I did back then. And I retired when I graduated at 21; I think I would have been swimming faster in my mid- to late-20s if I had continued to train full time, much less used modern backstroke turns and SDKs. But I watch the young kids train and compete against them enough to see the difference. They recover so much faster than I do and can step it up 2 or 3 extra notches in races. It just isn't something I believe I can replicate at my age. I can only speak for myself. I think the Smiths are on record as saying pretty much the same for themselves. John made an interesting comment that the more elite swimmer one was, the more difficult it would be to accomplish the feat of equalling or bettering lifetime bests. Maybe it is true. Dennis Baker trains about as hard as I can imagine a 40+ swimmer can train. He accomplished an amazing feat in the 200 fly (for his age)...and was still quite a few seconds from his lifetime best (I believe he was a sub-2:00 in his prime, or somewhere close to that). I wonder if SVDL could come close to her old times if she did what Dara did...but I think that would still not be enough to make the current Olympic team, much less set a new AR. I have no idea if DT is using PEDs. I saw a TV special on her a few months ago, and I was a little taken aback by the many pills she did take (OTC stuff, I guess). Nothing illegal, I would assume -- didn't she say she was taking creatine at one point? -- but the mindset was a little disturbing to me. (I use the occasional Advil for pain/inflammation and sometimes drink chocolate milk for recovery, that's pretty much it.) But I do applaud DT's aggressive testing protocol. I don't know what else she could do. I doubt we will ever know the full truth behind her amazing performances so it is just a matter of opinion or faith.

So in your mind she is neither juiced nor an anomaly. Actually, yes she is an anomaly! But if she is an anomaly.....so are a whole lot of other Masters Swimmers! Maybe not to the extent she is but, look at the progression of US and World Records in swimming.....there are times being clocked today that people thought were physically impossible just a few years ago. Training? Equipment? Supplements? All of the above?