Dara Torres-Amazing

Well, if you were a mesomorph would you really need HGH to get defined abs? Or are you saying if you did, it would only make them more defined than normal? More defined than normal. When I stay away from the donuts, mine can get pretty defined. Alas, they are not there now. What if I tried HGH or gene therapy? Would it not, along with a good diet and exercise program, get me there a little faster?

Showing ab definition has more to do with genetics, body fat %, and hydration levels than taking EPO or steroids. What if a mesomorph like myself tried HGH or gene therapy? DISCLAIMER: I am not saying that Dara is doing this.

Tracy & I wannafly...although all evidence from this forum may lead you to believe the opposite...I don't live my life as a sad, angry, hateful, skeptic...I'm actually quite an optimist. the fact that you had no knowledge of failed drug tests is evidence enough you are far away from this "world". But the fact is you base your beliefs simply on your "heart"...not from daily communication with athletes and coaches close to this stuff, not from your own personal experience getting to a fairly high level of training/racing (not masters) and seeing first hand what's its like to try and make these break thru's, seeing the physiological changes of athletes around you that have cheated up close and personal...bottom line is I'm hopeful but also a realist in that I think there is far more cheating going on in swimming than people want to accept and if we want a cleaner sport we need to scrutinize anomalies such as what Dara has achieved....notice I said scrutinize. Okay Paul, I'll give you benefit of the doubt about being an optimist, despite the fact that apparently you drink cheap wine, because I hear that you're a pretty nice guy. And I'll disagree with you on basing my beliefs on my "heart". I believe that people are fundamentally good and until there is credible evidence to the contrary, I continue to believe that. I used to follow track & field a lot. I remember following the 100 m dash up to the 1988 games. I remember the changes that Ben Johnson underwent. Admittedly, I was only 18 at the time, so I just assumed that he was working really hard. He probably was, but he also had that little something extra working for him. I will continue to believe in Dara Torres until some evidence comes up. You know that if she's cheating, somebody, one of these days, will figure out a way to out her. Just like McNamee did to Clemens! She has to have made some enemies along the way.

I saw a picture of Dara in the New York Times dated July 29, 2008. What bothers me is her abs. Has anybody seen a 41 year old MAN with that kind of definition? I've worked out with a number of professional female athletes under 30 that do not have that kind of definition. Believe me, they also do 90 minutes of core work a day. Can somebody find me a pic of a woman over 35 who has had a baby in the last 2.5 years that has abs like that? Can somebody find me a pic of a woman over 35 who has not had a baby that has abs like that? Something does not seem right.

Showing ab definition has more to do with genetics, body fat %, and hydration levels than taking EPO or steroids. And some sweet photoshop touchup.

I have to hand it to you, Geek, you are a MASTER of Argumentum Ad Hominem. Btw, it was a question in response to this statement. "Sorry, that's not for you to decide. While I don't agree with tjburk, I do enjoy the banter and am learning. You can't stifle that but thanks again for telling us how to behave. " Did you not see the '?' at the end? 't plan on changing.

So someone engaged in accusations or verbal attacks on another meets your definition of a discussion? If so, is something that you are passing onto your children? Sweet, now free parenting advice. Stick to swimming, amigo.

Sorry, but saying that all these messages are just part of a discussion is not accurate. I have seen numerous attacks/accusations. Sorry, but those are not a realistic part of any discussion. Why not? I haven't seen many direct accusations aside from the White Buffalo alias. Even the Smiths' "scrutiny" stops short. And they're allowed to be skeptical and cynical and unhappy people. Not sure the top women from Nats are training nearly as much as Dara. I don't think her abs are very good evidence of anything though ... The photos seemed designed to make her look as ripped as possible. She doesn't look nearly as ripped in the cheesecake model shots from Jim Thornton's article. Jessica Hardy's starts were worse than Dara's.

Yeah, that was my point. That whole sport is one big bucket of juice and those guys all look like they have gone a few years without a decent hamburger. Looks like the sport continues to push the limits. "we know that five of his (Lances') ex-teammates have been involved in doping." latimesblogs.latimes.com/.../the-dope-on-lan.html

Geek, Given cycling's wonderful reputation for being a clean sport and the fact that you are on the road more now, we expect some noticeable results in and out of the water now..... :-) John Smith