Dara Torres-Amazing

I go to Church because of a belief there may be a god. It does not mean there is a god. PRECISELY!!! No more than the idea that Xenu exists because scientologists believe. Or that pink unicorns are flying around in my garage because I believe. Facts aren't determined by belief.

I stuck with Ben until it was proof positive. It seems none like you can stand behind a superb athlete like DT. I will stand up any time for Clemens, a person I really dislike personality wise, until really proven guilty. For some reason there is this idea that you have to ascribe to knowledge you don't (and never will) have in order to support Dara. I like to think Dara is clean. Sure. I like to think that athletes at the top level all over are clean. But I DON'T KNOW. That doesn't make me a traitor. I don't sit up nights thinking about their cheating ways. I watch their performances and enjoy their exploits just like you. I just ask some (obviously for you) very uncomfortable questions. I guarantee you the best athletes out there are asking those same questions. Why it's wrong to ask is beyond me.

Would you stand up for Clemens if it was a test made by the French on Lance??? The same French that busted Landis? Oh yea, that wasn't testoterone, that was the shot of Jack Daniels he drank the night before. Or, the same French that busted Tyler Hamilton (I think it was the French)? Oops, that was the deceased in-utero twin that gave him unnatural levels of hormones in his blood.

In a court of law, the beliefs of the jury and/or the judge have a fair amount to do with one's guilt or innocence. IMHO anyhow.So judges, juries and beliefs actually cause the crime? Or, does the person cause the crime and we have to rely on a very imperfect system that uses some concrete evidence and some opinion to convict or acquit? And I suppose O.J. didn't murder Nicole since the jury said so. I, again, assert that the crime was committed by someone no matter if I believe it was space aliens or O.J. My beliefs don't change what happened. And I readily admit that WE MAY NEVER REALLY KNOW who did it. I also admit that I have wondered if O.J. is guilty! My belief doesn't make it so!!! Like I posted yesterday, she is calling out the doubters to prove her guilt or innocence. So if you are so sure, prove it.Uh...show me where I am sure about anything? If anything you are SURE that she didn't do anything. I'm just wondering. Jeez...this isn't that difficult. Do you think Dara has never wondered if other swimmers have doped? Sure she has. But she doesn't let it affect her precisely because she doesn't run around deciding guilt or innocence based on her beliefs!

Like I posted yesterday, she is calling out the doubters to prove her guilt or innocence. So if you are so sure, prove it. Unfortunately, this seems to be largely rhetorical.

Do you live in the same world as the rest of us???? Belief has everything to do with how you view life, people, relationships....everything!! Your belief system is who you are!!! You even quote it by saying: "Can we have feelings/questions one way or another without claiming to know? Yes" These are beliefs....if not, what are they?Just pointing out that what one believes has nothing to do with what is factual. You may believe athletes don't dope. That has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not they do. It seems that anyone who questions whether a performance may or may not have been clean or dirty on this thread is viewed as somehow unfair, unjust or immoral. It's just a question, people! Dara seems to have less of a problem with the question than many of you. It sounds to me like she's taken any questions she may have had about other swimmers possible doping activities without turning them into beliefs about actual guilt or innocence. Then she kicks their asses.

Just about as much as your stand on this subject. I want proof not what everyone thinks - that may not be true. But you just asked for everyone's "true thoughts." :mooning: You are taking one contradictory position after another.

Just about as much as your stand on this subject. I want proof not what everyone thinks - that may not be true. You have previously admitted your steadfast belief in your Canadian national hero Ben Johnson until he was proven a total fraud a liar. Therefore, your track record speaks for itself on this matter. Further, you continue to dispute everything McNamee has stated, despite the fact that every single allegation about other athletes has been testified to as truth by those very athletes. You have also said you believe all athletes should be allowed and encouraged to take drugs. Your credibility is therefore shot on this topic. The honest discussion of this matter is interesting, the hyperbole and nonsense you bring is not.

What you are saying is all are guilty regardless of the truth. Everyone who is fast must be guilty because they are fast. Everyone who is fast over 40 is guilty - Why because they have a top 10 time. Is Ande guilty? I don't think so but he is fast he must be guilty.Huh??? So for you life is black and white? Yes or no as an easy definitive answer to every question? Do you not allow yourself to ask questions about things? That's all I'm doing. Admitting that I don't know and that I do wonder. BIG DIFFERENCE. If you can't see that I don't know how to help you! Not even wondering about those who are "fast". Mostly about those who are exceedingly great who stand to benefit financially/career-wise from that greatness. Just wondering. Not willing to assert that I know one way or another.

More power to Dara. I hope she's 100% clean and that she makes the Olympic team. But that doesn't mean I don't wonder if sports at that level for any athlete is truly clean. Me too. George, that's just nonsense.