Dara Torres-Amazing

I agree (and said as much, I think) but I also think it is sad for the "campers" because it lessens their enjoyment of the events through no fault of their own. I guess I'm existential enough not to be horrifically bothered with lack of complete certainty. I plan on enjoying the Trials and Olympics. I will admit that I didn't watch nearly as much of the Tour de France this year though.

It's not sad that you are in that camp, rather, it's sad that sports in general are in such a state of affairs as to lead you into that camp in the first place. I agree (and said as much, I think) but I also think it is sad for the "campers" because it lessens their enjoyment of the events through no fault of their own.

You missed a group.... .... -- Those who view almost all extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion because of the prevalence of PEDs in modern athletics. -- and Those who view some extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion given empirical and historical evidence as compared to peers as potentially indicative of using PEDs. Okay. I was hoping that "...the prevalence of PEDs..." covered the same ground.:doh: I think I should also include camps for hippy ex-Call grads, nerdy UNC grads, and too-tall UT grads. You and Ande would be in the last one, I do believe...

Why is there any rancor? I have no idea. But those in camps 2 or 3 or Goodsmith's 4 have been accused of defamation and needing a sharp whack with the ruler from mommy for speaking out of turn or saying "bad" things. No need for moral reprobation. Nothing "sad" about being in camps 2 or 3 or 4 either. I'm perfectly comfortable there.

Is it completely predictable that an "Amy the Cal grad" would tend toward questioning and skepticism???;) And I wasn't even at Berkeley in the sixties!

Why is there any rancor? None of us know the truth here. It seems like we have the following camps (I'm sure I am oversimplifying): -- Those who presume DT clean and haven't been convinced otherwise. -- Those who think that such performances are near-impossible for a 40-year-old without PEDs -- Those who view almost all extraordinary athletic performances with suspicion because of the prevalence of PEDs in modern athletics. (Since I am in the first camp, I apologize if my wording of the other camps angers anyone. It is unintentional because I respect those of you who hold those opinions.) There is nothing immoral about falling into any one of these camps. I think the Amy the Cal grad said it: it is a matter of your personality (I would say "worldview" but then again I'm a pompous windpage academic-type.) I will make the observation that it is impossible to prove a negative, so that those who fall into the last two camps will almost certainly remain there. I find that a little sad, but I think it is more a statement on the current situation in professional athletics than anything else.

I think that the people here have all looked at Dara's achievements and her reported workout regime, etc. and formed reasonable opinions. They are, however opposing opinions. I will not try to convince you or others, but my opinion is that Dara is and always has been clean. This opinion has been formed based on the following facts, plus some others that I'm probably forgetting as I type. It isn't like she sat around watching TV and smoking cigarettes in her "off" years from swimming. She has remained incredibly fit throughout the years with her tai bo stint and everything else. When she came back, she learned a new more efficient freestyle stroke and has taken up a new workout regime that is different than anyone else's. Her stroke efficiency was significantly better than anyone else in the pool at nationals last year. THAT is the real difference with Dara, and drugs don't give you that. I noticed the same thing with Kara Lynn Joyce's stroke at the Mizzou meet last week, so maybe her competition is starting to pick up on this. She is also concentrating on very short races, which is more plausible for her limited swimming workouts. Seeing her on the deck at Mizzou, her musculature was not out of proportion vs. any of the other women in the faster heats. I just don't see anything that points decisively to drug use.Amen. Thank you for having a different perspective about the situation than I do (mine changes back and forth) but admitting that my questions aren't irrational, immoral or evil. That's all I was after :applaud:

Seeing her on the deck at Mizzou, her musculature was not out of proportion vs. any of the other women in the faster heats. This is a very revealing sentence. I would hazard a guess that the majority of the other competitors are 40-50% younger than her, and yet no difference in appearance.

Yea, it is possible to have a good season outside of the SEC. Just an undefeated season in any other conference isn't as impressive. Face it, the best overall football and swimming are in the SEC. The best overall basketball may very well be the ACC. Please...Now that is slander. Everyone knows the best basketball conference is the Big East!!! Odds say that the Dookies and the Tarheels both miss out on the final four!:blah::blah::blah::blah: My mom always told me that if I didn't have anything nice to say, that I shouldn't say it at all. And I've also heard that restraint of pen and tongue is the sign of a good person. I assume that applies to keyboards too! I personally have too much to worry about (like trying to learn to swim backstroke and fly) without worrying whether or not Dara Torres is cheating, the government is spying on me, the doctors are experimenting on me without my knowledge or an alien ship landed in Roswell! I just enjoy watching fast swimmers swim fast. That's why I'll be happy to watch Fort, Hulk and Chris swim at Colonies Zones. My apoligies to all the other really fast people that I did not mention by name (not you Stud:-))!

poolraat - you can read whatever you want on this DISCUSSION FORUM. Feel free to ignore. This thread is like jock itch: It won't go away, it's getting angrier as time passes and you know you shouldn't scratch but you just can't help it... :lmao::rofl: Well I think I'm hilarious...