EVF - vertical in which plane(s)?

Thanks for the tips and pointers. So I want to get my forearm into vertical (the intersection of the sagittal and transverse planes) as early as possible. That means that as my arm goes from the streamline position I need to pull my upper arm down and rotate it at the same time. I was playing around with this last night (while Ellen was watching Lost) in both free air and with my stretch cords. Seems like at best I could get to vertical about the time my elbow is at about the same height as my ear. Practically speaking I suspect the earliest I could get to that position is when my elbow is at shoulder height. Does EVF affect your roll? Make it easier or harder to maintain? Skip Montanaro I have found, because I do roll on my free, that the position they advocate on paper: upper arm is horizontal vis-a-vis planet Earth, forearm is vertical (i.e., angle is 90 degrees) also re Earth, you would have to either: a) have the shoulder joints of a Chinese acrobat to be rolling, say 30-45 degrees (say right-shoulder UP, left shoulder down) and still have that 90 deg angle with a pure vertical forearm, or b) to have your forearm purely vertical and upper arm horizontal your two shoulders would be on the same horizontal plane (negate the swim-like-a-fish rolling from side to side theory c) What I have noticed swimmers like Thorpe and Hackett doing is that they do roll a bit, there is a 90 (or as near as) ddegree angle between upper and fore-arm but then the upper arm is at angle to the pure horizontal and their pulling hand instead of pulling outside the width of the torso, actually pulls somewhere below (underneath) the right shoulder, fingertips not quite reaching the belly-button longitudinal axis.. What I've also noticed -with these two swimmers in particular, because I happen to have more videos of them than of others- is that their departure from purely horizontal upper-arm and purely vertical fore-arm is more pronounced on one side than the other -no matter on which side they're breathing, as I watch. Both bend their right elbow more than the left. I guess it's a balance between extreme positions. I recently got the new Techpaddle and I've noticed that my right arm (by pure coincidence) had an almost perfect EVF bend while my left arm (my weaker arm and my breathing side) has less of an elbow bend. I'm therefore working more these days, using only the left-hand Techpaddle, trying to a- strenghthen the left arm (and cuff rotator on dry land) b- create more of an EVF or elbow bend The Techpaddles do help. I have also found that if you pull/push with your arms too close to the body, the paddle will touch (scratch) your thigh near the end of the stroke; this tends to make you increase the horizontalness, if you will, of your pulling upper-arm. Good luck.

Thanks for the tips and pointers. So I want to get my forearm into vertical (the intersection of the sagittal and transverse planes) as early as possible. That means that as my arm goes from the streamline position I need to pull my upper arm down and rotate it at the same time. I was playing around with this last night (while Ellen was watching Lost) in both free air and with my stretch cords. Seems like at best I could get to vertical about the time my elbow is at about the same height as my ear. Practically speaking I suspect the earliest I could get to that position is when my elbow is at shoulder height. Does EVF affect your roll? Make it easier or harder to maintain? Skip Montanaro I have found, because I do roll on my free, that the position they advocate on paper: upper arm is horizontal vis-a-vis planet Earth, forearm is vertical (i.e., angle is 90 degrees) also re Earth, you would have to either: a) have the shoulder joints of a Chinese acrobat to be rolling, say 30-45 degrees (say right-shoulder UP, left shoulder down) and still have that 90 deg angle with a pure vertical forearm, or b) to have your forearm purely vertical and upper arm horizontal your two shoulders would be on the same horizontal plane (negate the swim-like-a-fish rolling from side to side theory c) What I have noticed swimmers like Thorpe and Hackett doing is that they do roll a bit, there is a 90 (or as near as) ddegree angle between upper and fore-arm but then the upper arm is at angle to the pure horizontal and their pulling hand instead of pulling outside the width of the torso, actually pulls somewhere below (underneath) the right shoulder, fingertips not quite reaching the belly-button longitudinal axis.. What I've also noticed -with these two swimmers in particular, because I happen to have more videos of them than of others- is that their departure from purely horizontal upper-arm and purely vertical fore-arm is more pronounced on one side than the other -no matter on which side they're breathing, as I watch. Both bend their right elbow more than the left. I guess it's a balance between extreme positions. I recently got the new Techpaddle and I've noticed that my right arm (by pure coincidence) had an almost perfect EVF bend while my left arm (my weaker arm and my breathing side) has less of an elbow bend. I'm therefore working more these days, using only the left-hand Techpaddle, trying to a- strenghthen the left arm (and cuff rotator on dry land) b- create more of an EVF or elbow bend The Techpaddles do help. I have also found that if you pull/push with your arms too close to the body, the paddle will touch (scratch) your thigh near the end of the stroke; this tends to make you increase the horizontalness, if you will, of your pulling upper-arm. Good luck.