FINA Breastroke Question

I might be the only one that noticed this but.... It seems to me like after the start it takes the judges quite some time to get up to the edge of the pool and actually start watching the swim. I know the bubbles and whatnot from the start make it hard to see these small kicks but maybe part of the problem is also that the judges aren't in a position to see them when they happen. Yet they are right there on relay take-offs. Why can't they be right there for individual starts to be able to see better? When I coached kids, I was able to see a lot of things on the dive I probably wouldn't see if I were three feet away. If there is any rule change, that should be it. If they're not worried about being in the peripheral view of the relay swimmers, they shouldn't be concerned about interfering with individual swims. But as I said elsewhere, I saw this coming. Once you take away someone's ability to cheat, they'll find a new way.

Maybe???if the kick is on entry it could be a "legitimate" part of the start. 2 kicks is just cheating. The fact the judges can't/won't call it doesn't make it right. Paul,please stop sniping at *** or I'll have to go back to calling long axis the Axis of Evil":thhbbb: :thhbbb: :thhbbb: I think there should be no dolphin in breaststroke. I'd be OK with a rule change to allow one to swim the first 15 M each length underwater BREASTSTROKE. I agree! Nothing wrong with a 15 meter rule. Allen: There are some of us who are half 'n half types. ;) I see Lisogor beat Hansen in the 50 ***. If I recall correctly, he is one of the double dolphin cheaters. I will watch it later tonight.

I don't think imposing the 15 meter rule in *** would help. It'd just make it hard on the breaststrokers. While they go farther with the kick, a good pullout alone could send you way past 15 meters. I agree that underwater cams would be good to have, and I've wondered why they haven't introduced them earlier, but as Leo pointed out there are a lot of kinks to work out before you can use it. Look at how long the NFL was around before the Instant Replay came around.

While technology is a good answer, it presents problems. Do you not accept a record if the camera shorted out just before the last turn? How about someone coming out of nowhere to break the record and you didn't think to have them there. What about qualifying meets? Do the cameras have to be there in order for the times to count? How about a qualifying meet for a qualifying meet? While it may seem like a simple solution, it is not simply implemented. (I am not even considering masters here BTW.) Leo Maybe you only do it at the finals. If you cheated your way to the finals but still out swim the others on final day while on camera...you still won. However, qualiyfing meets could be held and the participants not know if there are cameras or not...so it would be like random drug testing. In any case if there is indisputably clear evidence of cheating on film...it's never too late to overturn. Especially in something like swimming where there is no "time remaining" to overcome a bad or missed call. That's my thinking on it.

I might be the only one that noticed this but.... It seems to me like after the start it takes the judges quite some time to get up to the edge of the pool and actually start watching the swim. I know the bubbles and whatnot from the start make it hard to see these small kicks but maybe part of the problem is also that the judges aren't in a position to see them when they happen. Also, as to video cameras...when do you use them? In the NFL they are used to overturn calls that are made. Am I right in assuming people want a review of every single lane in every race in the finals? That seems overly burdensome to me. Just watch the start/turn? What if I cheat in the middle? I think that video could be useful insofar as it allows judges to make closer calls because they know it will be video reviewed. But to review every single swim seems like a waste to me. Just my two cents.

While technology is a good answer, it presents problems. Do you not accept a record if the camera shorted out just before the last turn? How about someone coming out of nowhere to break the record and you didn't think to have them there. What about qualifying meets? Do the cameras have to be there in order for the times to count? How about a qualifying meet for a qualifying meet? While it may seem like a simple solution, it is not simply implemented. (I am not even considering masters here BTW.) Leo I don't think a shorted-out camera need be treated any differently than a judge that sneezes, blinks or looks away at the wrong moment. Cameras would just be an additional assist for judges and would act as deterrent for swimmers. Similar issues could arise if a swimmer swam a world record swim at a rinky-dink meet with a newbie official. A cynical person could suggest that the judge-assisting cameras be mandatory if there is going to be any underwater video, so that at least we aren't broadcasting our inability to enforce the rules live on tv or the net.

I do that too, why not, judges are stupid they can't see the kicks amid the turbulence and bubbles. I get away with it all the time. You think some bonehead in Fina would allow underwater cameras to catch cheaters AJ So, I watched some of the Australia meet events tonight and I have a question concerning breastroke. I watched in slow-mo about 10 times and I swear the breastrokers are taking two dolphin kicks on the dive entry before the now-legal one big dolphin kick. Is this now legal also, the two small little dolphin kicks?

The rules state one dolphin kick, something to the effect of: a single downward dolphin kick followed by a single breaststroke kick while wholly submerged. I think that many people get away with the dolphin kick as they enter because it is hard to see (from above) with the white water of the dive. It is possible that for some it is a legitimate side effect of the way they pike and dive in (perhaps I'm stretching the benefit of the doubt here, but still). However, 2 dolphins at the start? Come on... I don't think that's any kind of dive side effect. This is really irritating.

I would need to look up the exact wording but, in a nutshell, the rules state that the one dolphin kick can occur during or after the arm pull down. If it happens before the pull down while still in streamline it is a disqualification. But as others have said it is very hard to see it from the end of the pool because of the splash and surface turbulance.

It was really blatant from the underwater angle. It was so blatant that it led me to believe it must be legal. I always felt it was a bit odd they have allowed the fly kick in backstroke but have learned to live with it. But, if folks are now getting one legal and some illegal number of dolphin kicks on ***, are we eventually just going to two strokes - free and some version of stroke with a fly kick?