There is nothing that wrecks a good swimming related thread faster than getting into a discussion about message board etiquette. So here is a thread that people can use discuss topics related to what should and should not be posted on the message boards while allowing the other threads to stay on topic.
It seems to me that there is a spectrum of opinion on off-topic posting. On one end of the spectrum people think that threads are a mechanism specifically designed to allow people to carry on discussions on different topics and that we would all be well served if changes in topic were just done in new threads. On the other end of the spectrum people think that people should be able to post anything they want anywhere they want and that any suggestion to the contrary is censorship, a personal attack, or simply control freakish.
Pretty much everyone falls somewhere between these two extremes. Very few people object to a humorous quip inserted here and there in an otherwise serious discussion. Very few people would actually advocate that people be able to liberally sprinkle potentially offensive posts randomly through all the threads.
Have you ever been at a party where someone has decided that this is the right time and place to have a big argument or screaming match with someone? Has it ever contributed to the general enjoyment of the rest of the people there?
I would argue that posts that are essentially expressions of anger and/or are essentially personal attacks have no place on the board. They don't contribute anything positive and generally turn off 99% of the people reading the boards. Even if it seems that someone else has attacked you, does it really help anything to post an angry response?
I personally don't see the problem with starting a new thread when one wants to make an off-topic comment, a little cut and paste and/or a link makes it easy enough to carry the context into the new thread. Why is it essential to be able to carry on an unrelated discussion in a thread where some people are trying to carry on a discussion on a particular topic?
Former Member
Do you think Terry will come back if he sees that the banter is more confined to NSR threads that he can avoid? It seems like everyone wants to play fair. And your other post was a good idea, Dave. It sounds like many really enjoyed Terry's expertise. I guess no one person is liked by all though ...
I think Terry loves to teach, talk and write about swimming. The threads he started here were thought provoking, and caused many (even experienced swimmers) to examine the way they do things. I think there should be a place on a swimming forum where that kind of stuff doesn't get washed out by chit chat.
I think Terry loves to teach, talk and write about swimming. The threads he started here were thought provoking, and caused many (even experienced swimmers) to examine the way they do things. I think there should be a place on a swimming forum where that kind of stuff doesn't get washed out by chit chat.
Since I was a lurker before I posted, I saw that he has a passion for swimming. I notice SeaGurl started an NSR thread that looks really popular. The other threads that I've glanced at don't look overrun by comedy at all and seem on topic, although I like comedy too. Could Terry label his posts T or TP like you suggest? I think people would generally respect it by and large. People seem to want to to avoid future train wrecks, but still have fun. I notice you like to have some fun too. Your handicap thread was SR fun, but looked more for veteran posters.
SwimStud: Sorry I lurked for so long without posting. I'm not as outgoing as some of you. I also just wanted to see the personalities before I waded in blind. But the "topic poll" thread was what finally made me want to make my long wordy third or so post. It looks like Jim Thornton hasn't posted either the last few days. I think he's very funny. So I hope he didn't leave after the train wreck "swim camp" thread. There should be a place for us all.
As this thread continues, I notice some folks talking about "many" and generalizing that most people here want........
I think that "most" is actually a small group, and if there were truly a poll of the 800 posters on February 1, you would find that the more vocal posters are in the minority.
Aren't you maybe generalizing a bit here? You say other people are generalizing, then you seem to go ahead and do it. Can you truly know what the 800 viewers or other non-posters think? Are you saying they would disaprove of the vocal posters? I think you are sort of guilty of what you accuse Rich or others of here. But maybe I'm misinterpreting. Don't mean to offend. I guess I didn't fall into the "most" group you found.
It seems like many people, on this thread anyway, even Lindsay, have said that they like some humor, but I'm sure it could be confined a bit more, as on SeaGurl's new thread. :)
Actually I think this is actually Lindsay's point. Reading the first page made me not want to read the rest. I perused a couple more pages, and it indeed had good information, although I am not going to any camps, which is probably why I did not open it in the first place.
As this thread continues, I notice some folks talking about "many" and generalizing that most people here want........
I think that "most" is actually a small group, and if there were truly a poll of the 800 posters on February 1, you would find that the more vocal posters are in the minority.
Dorothy I wasn't criticising you. I was being a little tongue-in-cheek about that thread. However I didn't want you to think it was all about a confrontation...if you read long enough to gather that I am happy.
Not to be self righteous...I'm not always right...just usually LOL
If people read my post on page 1 of this thread, they will see an admittance of fault and a hope for a little self control and respect from everyone...that was my message for this thread, and to kind of stand alongside Lindsay to show that we (the forum) are not so opposed about things, but maybe some self control is in order.
As for the "most" vs. "vocal minority" thing: most posters would be the vocal minority, right? I can't speak of, or assess those that sit lurking and contribute nothing--good, bad ,or average. Also how many of the 800 were posting in this segment vs. coaching and other segments. Curious on that.
Again I'll state the Camp thread was a wreck...but there are too many disruptors on that thread to blame any one or few. By the time it got to "lunches" we'd had a couple of personal attacks, which are always uncalled for, and the thread was dead. Jim Thornton could go in and rename it so nobody can carp on about the informational value of it any longer, and repost his original thread to try again. At least I would do that.
If anyone jumps onto a serious discussion and starts wrecking it, I think they should be called out. It WILL happen, and it will likely be me as anyone. Just point it out; PMs are less sharp and can be digested a little easier by all egos--usually.
Nobody is defending what happened on the camp thread. I only say that if the opening poster starts to go off the path and into the woods others will follow.
For me, I took some bloody hard classes at university. The "walking mummy" type teachers may as well not been there. The book was all you needed.
The teachers that cracked jokes, made anecdotal stories up to relay the information were loved and heard by the class--I did my best work in that environment. If you want to find out my academic record then PM me LOL.
Honestly, I feel if the humourous ones here stopped posting...informational value would go down too--I'd lay money on it. People would not post, and might not get so many tips from the newbs and vets alike. After all the majority just lurk right?
I think the only thing we need do is not break up informative threads a la camp thread--a quip or two is fine. We all agree on this...so why are we still debating and clarifying this?
As far as I am concerned this forum is my coach, team and locker room...there will be some that don't get along, but just respect each other is all. There needs to be room for banter as well as information.
Rich
O.k. WARNING: This one might get aq bit long winded (even by my standards.....LOL!!) b/c I want to address several different issues that have been brought up here....So I will address them in outline format:
First: There has been concern brought up by a few (oldies and newbies alike) about whether or not the banter around here has driven off valuable old time posters. First of all, Old time posters do NOT carry any more weight when voting on issues in polls or in giving their opinions ...etc...than the newest of the nubile. I left for a year or so and came back (and I'm somewhat of an old timer)....People leave periodically for their own reasons...Peter left for a while b/c he said his bookstore wasn't doing well....then he came back. Sam Perry left for a while...but he pops in from time to time and seems very happy. GoodSmith hasn't posted much lately....and why is that such a bad thing...(just j/k John). Bottom line: Its pure speculation as to exactly why some people stop posting for a while....Its a major speculative leap to say that it has to do with any one thing or the other. Many of the posters mentioned like Gull or Terry (and possibly others) might have left in anger...but why does that necessarily have more to do with the personalities currently posting than their own personalities? Just b/c someone is an oldie from way back doesn't mean they have fewer personality flaws than anyone else IMO.
Second issue: Morgan pointed out that he felt many good SR threads and postings were going unanswered while NSR threads and postings were thriving. While I agree that a thread needs to stay MORE on topic than the swim camp thread (and we are going to work on that problem now...right folks?), I think this other issue Morgan mentioned is a different issue. My opinion is that people should have total freedom to choose what thread discussions they want to join and what postings they want to respond too. I try fairly hard to respond with support and enthusiasm to many of the newbie postings that clearly ask for help with swimming advise for the most part....But why should I feel a special obligation to join in a particular SR discussion if I'm simply not interested? If people don't want to discuss a topic and a thread dies...well then I say so be it....It is an infringement on the freedom to discuss what we want to discuss to say that we should feel a special obligation to reply to this posting or that....or join a thread b/c it is SR. I responded to Morgan's thread about the underwater MP3 player almost out of obligation (I felt) after reading his posting....truth is I don't know anything abut the topic....Sometimes I'm just not interested in some of the SR topics.
Last issue: Too much speculation about what causes potential new posters to join or causes them to turn away based on this discussion board. Karlene pointed out that there are lots of lurkers who never post and so she attributed this to the fact that the low quality posting was turning away new potential posters....How do we know that things would be any different if all the disussions were purely SR?? That is a purely speculative conclusion IMO.
The only thing we can go by is real statistical information (as limitted as that is)...For example, in the now closed Topics Poll thread from a few weeks back 17 posters voted that they prefer predminantly SR discussions....31 posters voted that they prefer at least some extra unrelated banter and humour....of those 31 votes, 18 posters voted for sexual innuendo and ribaldry in addition to the unrelated NSR banter. Now some have said that these polls shouldn't count b/c ONLY certain personalities will vote in these polls....I say thats hogwash....Thats like saying Bush shouldn't be president b/c ONLY certain personalities show up to vote at the Polls. This was an anonymous poll on a topic that was of importance at the time....If you didn't vote and now want to complain about the results saying they are not an accurate reflection of the posters wishes here...well thats your own fault then for not voting IMO!
Enough said,
Jim
p.s. Nice to see you're back again SwimONandOn....LOL!! Having a personailty switch again?...LOL! (just j/k now!)
I apologize unlike Blainesapprentice I am all for drinking and had a few glasses of Pinot before logging back in ... THAT'S RIGHT WINE people DEAL WITH IT!
completly off-topic for this thread but...im not against drinking...I just don't drink. :drink: So have another round! On me!
Second issue: Morgan pointed out that he felt many good SR threads and postings were going unanswered while NSR threads and postings were thriving. While I agree that a thread needs to stay MORE on topic than the swim camp thread (and we are going to work on that problem now...right folks?), I think this other issue Morgan mentioned is a different issue. My opinion is that people should have total freedom to choose what thread discussions they want to join and what postings they want to respond too. I try fairly hard to respond with support and enthusiasm to many of the newbie postings that clearly ask for help with swimming advise for the most part....But why should I feel a special obligation to join in a particular SR discussion if I'm simply not interested? If people don't want to discuss a topic and a thread dies...well then I say so be it....It is an infringement on the freedom to discuss what we want to discuss to say that we should feel a special obligation to reply to this posting or that....or join a thread b/c it is SR. I responded to Morgan's thread about the underwater MP3 player almost out of obligation (I felt) after reading his posting....truth is I don't know anything abut the topic....Sometimes I'm just not interested in some of the SR topics.
her
and I didn't mean my post to say...look at all my topics going ignored...I'd rather people post that actually know about the topic or that are interested in the topic instead of just post out of feeling of obligation. I just meant overall I think there are some topics that quickly die out, not because no one is interested or no one has insight, but because there are other topics that have some NSR banter going on that quickly pushes the new thread down on the list. I know that I normally just look at the most recent page of threads, and typically just the top portion since those are the most active ones, but occasionally I will scroll through the first few pages and find threads that I completly missed and that only had like one or two comments on...
it was just an observation. didn't want to make anyone feel like they HAD to post on every topic or anything, that wouldn't be helpful either I would imagine.
but yes. Morgan = a her.
I'll take that bet in a heartbeat. The few on this forum who find themselves humorous derail most threads, use language not even suitable for a locker room, continuously toot their own horns and have driven many of the serious posters either away or hard to find. There are about four serious regular swim posters left these days (ande, knelson, lindsey, scyfreestyler). It's unfortunate what this forum has become these days, a far cry from six months ago.
It's obvious the ones that find themselves humorous have won out, both in quantity of posts and tone of the forum. I hope they are satisfied with the results. I miss the serious posters, but, to be honest, don't blame them one bit for leaving.
Geek, you are without doubt one of the superior athletes here. I respect you for that. You also chose to hurl abuse, I don't respect you for that.
You are nobody to point out about lowering tone IMHO. Not that I have anything against you at all.
However, some things you have said in text you might not say face to face either. I'm not talking about anything you said to me either so pls don't read this as me puffing my chest out.
If by derail you mean a quip here or there then yeah, most other than that I disagree. First it was complaining about NSR threads in their entirety, now it's we derail every serious thread. It's just not so. What's with "we've won?" I wasn't in a fight as far as I was concerned...
Re-read what I've been saying in this thread. We've admitted fault and have said how we intend to to try and rectify that.
Lastly anyone who posts on a forum obviously thinks they have something important to say, good, bad, silly or informative.
I'll take that bet in a heartbeat. The few on this forum who find themselves humorous derail most threads, use language not even suitable for a locker room, continuously toot their own horns and have driven many of the serious posters either away or hard to find. There are about four serious regular swim posters left these days (ande, knelson, lindsey, scyfreestyler). It's unfortunate what this forum has become these days, a far cry from six months ago.
It's obvious the ones that find themselves humorous have won out, both in quantity of posts and tone of the forum. I hope they are satisfied with the results. I miss the serious posters, but, to be honest, don't blame them one bit for leaving.
This seems like a mean, bullying comment to me. I don't see people "tooting their own horns." There are other serious posters like the one who just posted,Swimr4Life. I think targeting people who joined six months ago is a not so thinly-veiled personal attack. I'm not in favor of it. It sounds like you just want things your way and don't like any new blood. Can't you compromise too? It sounds like others are willing to.
sorry if I called you a he Morgan and you are a she....I guess Morgan is one of those names like Chris or Tony that can go either way....LOL!! I understand that NSR threads may push other SR threads down the list and that may be upsetting to some....BUT I still believe in giving posters the freedom to pick and choose which threads they wat to post in.....For example, Kyra's NSR thread was labeled as such and she also welcomed hijacking....this may have pushed an SR thread down the list....BUT if Kyra has many friends here and she wants to talk about the Oscars with them (which is NSR), then doesn't she have an equal right to do so? There are far more SR threads posted here than NSR threads. But occaissionally some posters want to discuss other topics with thier forum friends. Even Ande who is considered by most to be one of the most serious SR posters likes to discuss his song writing, American Idol, The Grammy awards, and many other NSR topics.....If you don't believe me, just go check his posting history. I am sorry if you feel some of the more serious SR threads get pushed down the list from time to time in favor of NSR threads.....but that is the nature of the beast sometimes....There is a "significant Minority" here that prefer SR threads as the predominant type of thread....(according to the topic poll I mentioned earlier)....and a clear majority that like some of the NSR stuff as well.....its like any other tyoe of Democracy....You can't make everybody happy all of the time....I think if we agree to make a conscious effort (as Rich and others including myself have already stated) to stay more on topic within our threads....and make a conscious effort to resist casting insults back and forth, then this should be enough to satisfy the majority of the posters and still meet the desires of the administrators in being able to attract enough newbies to USMS in general....but that is ONLY my opinion....others like Geek and Karlene (and many others I am guessing) have thier own opinions and they may be completely different than mine. I am glad that we have an opportunity here to discuss these issues...because it is important to the forum to have this kind of discussion IMO.
Newmastersswimmer
