There is nothing that wrecks a good swimming related thread faster than getting into a discussion about message board etiquette. So here is a thread that people can use discuss topics related to what should and should not be posted on the message boards while allowing the other threads to stay on topic.
It seems to me that there is a spectrum of opinion on off-topic posting. On one end of the spectrum people think that threads are a mechanism specifically designed to allow people to carry on discussions on different topics and that we would all be well served if changes in topic were just done in new threads. On the other end of the spectrum people think that people should be able to post anything they want anywhere they want and that any suggestion to the contrary is censorship, a personal attack, or simply control freakish.
Pretty much everyone falls somewhere between these two extremes. Very few people object to a humorous quip inserted here and there in an otherwise serious discussion. Very few people would actually advocate that people be able to liberally sprinkle potentially offensive posts randomly through all the threads.
Have you ever been at a party where someone has decided that this is the right time and place to have a big argument or screaming match with someone? Has it ever contributed to the general enjoyment of the rest of the people there?
I would argue that posts that are essentially expressions of anger and/or are essentially personal attacks have no place on the board. They don't contribute anything positive and generally turn off 99% of the people reading the boards. Even if it seems that someone else has attacked you, does it really help anything to post an angry response?
I personally don't see the problem with starting a new thread when one wants to make an off-topic comment, a little cut and paste and/or a link makes it easy enough to carry the context into the new thread. Why is it essential to be able to carry on an unrelated discussion in a thread where some people are trying to carry on a discussion on a particular topic?
The party comparison doesn't work for me because you can easily elect NOT to read the off topic stuff. Whereas at a party you can't ignore the yelling next to you.
How many people have ever participated in a conversation where you never strayed at all from the first thing you started talking about? Do you do this with friends? I'd imagine it would have to go like this ...
Person A: Hi.
Person B: Hi.
Person A: How are you?
Person B: I'm fine.
and into the off topic we would go ... it's not feasible, we all have the same right to post, we are all entitled do our freedom of speech, which does not extend to slanderous or "fighting" words so as long as we stay within those boundaries I think we are okay ...
All,
As Rob has noted, we do not want to do anything that is too restrictive but we have struggled to deal with what the USMS leaderships sees as the forums possibly going down the slippery slope beyond our ability to recover it. Speaking for myself but suspecting that the others involved with watching the forums, I have no problem with a comment about the weather in the middle of a serious attempt to add to the swimming related post. What I find difficult to justify are posts that the poster is, in large part, simply telling us what they are having for lunch to take from the most recent posts on the swim camp thread.
Please understand why we have the discussion forum available. First is to provide our members and friends an opportunity to learn about and discuss the sport we love. It is also a marketing tool for USMS. If your first encounter to this board was to come in wanting to know about swim camps and you opened up the thread that is currently going on, would you think the value of reading that thread was enough to draw you back? I don't have the time to waste and I doubt most would. If you view this forum as a service as well as a marketing tool, does it make sense to continue to run it if it is not fulfilling its goal.
USMS spends a significant amount of both employee and volunteer time dealing with our web space including the forum. If you notice, we are pretty good at getting advertisements off of the forum in a short period of time. There are a number of us who are monitoring the forums at any given time so we could clean up things quickly if we have to but WE DO NOT WANT to be the big brother here. We are just asking those that use the forums to us them with respect.
So if you want to post on this forum, stay on topic. If you need to make an off-topic comment and you think it is important, start another topic. The topic need not be all that serious. Remember, I started the thread "you know you are a swimmer when ...". That wasn't really one to help people swim faster but it was something that we all enjoyed. We are all smart enough here to know what needs to be done to keep this a valuable tool for the swimming community. Looking at the monofin thread, it has started out OK. Lets keep it that way.
Regards,
Leo
I would have thought it was clear that I am not a moderator and that I am aware of that fact. If it isn't clear yet, let me explicitly say that I am aware of that fact. Everyone is as free to ignore my posts as they are arguing that I should ignore theirs. I don't think that it logically follows that I can't give my own personal opinion on how I would like to see the boards operate. And I don't think that in doing so I should be seen as attacking people with other preferences.
I think Rob already pointed out the issue with rampant off-topic posts, it makes it hard to find the on-topic posts, which are the reason that the board was set up. And now, to prove that I am totally anally retentive, here is a summary of the on-topic posts on the swim camp thread:
1-5 on topic
12 original poster attempts to get back on topic
13 on topic
22 on topic
29 on topic
98 very informative on-topic post
104 post from USMS president
119 semi-hypocritical post with some on-topic content
up to 126 with continued postings as though the pres had never spoken up.
If I gave up on the thread after the first dozen posts I would have missed posts 13, 22, 29, and especially 98.
As a software engineer I would offer that since separate threads are too inconvenient for people, it would be really cool if the board software had an on-topic/off-topic tag for posts so that a reader who was interested in swimming topics could click on a button and view just the on-topic posts. It seems like a common enough issue that someday the bboard developers will do something along those lines. I am not suggesting that the USMS staff spend time on this, just saying it would be nice.
Also, for the record, both Fortress and SwimStud have, in my opinion, contributed a lot to the board and sparked a lot of discussions that I have found interesting. Anyone who is under the impression that I dislike them or am intending to attack either one of them is mistaken. I am just attempting to convey my own preferences.
Gull was one of my favorite posters, I think he has suffered unjustly simply due to association with Geek. And actually I don't have big issues with Geek either, it's just that I don't want to suffer that same guilt by association effect. ;)
Edit: Thanks Rich, I wrote this message before seeing your post.
Leo,
Your words are very much appreciated. But I have one "but." Many times, post topics runs along pretty smoothly, more than not thank goodness, but then someone says a couple of things that trigger my laugh button and I respond to that and then others jump in and we have a page or so of funny things that are off topic.
All I can say is I think this kind of off-topic thing can be a good thing, as long as it doesn't become a new topic within a topic. So, to let you know, I will do my best to stay on topic, but if a few words make me laugh and happy, I may say a short reply. This is just human nature, but I won't drag it on to where it is a topic within a topic. But this still would be better if it does happen occasionally than people overly-criticizing others for their opinions.
Frankly, this is a great place to be. I'm glad to be part of it. I am so isolated here on this island and have no one to talk about swimming with, so I am delighted to have so many new forum friends who understand and love the sport as much as I do.
Donna
I'm actually happy to fall in the middle as an actual person, not an information machine.
But this thread is a little too "control freakish" for my taste. I don't like being told where to post or being pre-assigned a spot. In fact, this thread reminds me of the post you made on Ande's Tips for Swimming Faster Faster in which you asked everyone not to comment or post so you could read the tips in unhindered, unblemished fashion. No one appeared to like that idea, even Ande. Kyra's idea of self-moderation is best. I also like Kirk's idea of just starting an NSR thread that is clearly identified so that people can avoid it if they wish.
So, your thread is not a bad idea in theory, but no thanks for me personally. I will either confine myself to a quip here and there or start a new thread amidst my regular SR posting. Now, I'm off to check on the progress of the short course championship prelims this morning. Bye. Have a good weekend.
I have never posted here, but have been reading for awhile. I have yet to find a thread offensive. I think some have gotten way off topic, but I simply stop reading those. Trying to act all high and mighty and tell people what is appropriate and what isn't is somewhat riddiculous. We are not children. We are all adults and if here should be at least 18.
Maybe lunch posts were a bit over the top, but it was all in good fun I assume ...
I, too , am an advocate of etiquette, on a message board or off of a board. Even though when people inflame others, I guess we are better people for turning the other cheek, I have turned both of mine several times and had them both bruised. After the Swimming Theories thread was closed, and I was guilty of blowing up because I had been called every name in the book, I learned my lesson and apologized to the moderators here and will never behave that way ever again on this forum. But I had been pushed to my limit and my self-preservation took over. This may come as a surprise, but I am not a Saint yet.
I think most of us can do a pretty good job of policing ourselves without the need for an additional thread to place our joking humor within a thread. I would think that would be a confusing thing; trying to respond to a joke on a swim thread, close it, go open up the joking thread to get our joke in, and then back to the swim thread. That's too many steps for me and I may lose my one-liner of humor along the way.
I think we should just remain as nice as possible to one another even when inflamed, and if there are some replies that morph into some funnies, funnies are good!!!
I suppose if a poster really wants ONLY strict swim discussion, he/she could put a disclaimer in the first line of the post requesting to stay on topic.
For now, I see no need for me to go to a different thread. A person can easily page down to skip over all of the comedians' comments here. So, right now, I am not in favor of your suggestion.
Donna
Why is it essential to be able to carry on an unrelated discussion in a thread where some people are trying to carry on a discussion on a particular topic?
This post is not my favorite read ever. I don't care about this stuff all that much. But I'm sure it offends others, including some of my cyber friends. As did the other attacks from the would-be censors.
Most people roughly stick to the topic. A little banter doesn't hurt if it's harmless and fun. If someone hurls an attack bomb, as Islandsox says, it's probably better to turn the other cheek. But since we are human, not always possible. Who cares that much? This isn't RL. Read over the stuff. Did you have to read the whole swim camp thread, Lindsay? Couldn't you have just skipped it when you saw the NSR stuff? Was it really essential to sermonize further?
We have mods. And we can self mod. You are not the high Mod. This is my only post here.
