So after all the endless discussions on this topic....and the challenge in trying to "coach" in writing I actually found myself helping out a local pro triathlete last week with just this thing.
As is the case on this forum and other times I've attempted to explain; catch, rotation, lengthening of stroke, maintaining stroke while accelerating, etc. I found again that some folks have a "natural" sense of feel for this stuff....its VERY hard to coach feel.
So.....I spent yesterday breaking down my stroke wit assistance from Jane Scott (Boulder Coach) and trying to better explain what it is I do unconsciously that others have to think about...some observations:
- In a series of 25's (all from a push) I tasked myself with keeping 11 strokes per lap and to descend each 25 till I added a stroke.....my goal to see what changed.
- First observation....I can literally slip my hand/forearm/arm thru the water without feeling any sense of "pressure" and take 11 strokes as slow as 25 seconds.....I can accelerate and descend down to 12+ keeping the same 11 strokes....faster than that my kick "kicks in" and I add another stroke and get to the low 11 range.
- What was different? First thing I noticed is that although it seems my hand track stayed the same on each 25 there was an ever increasing sense of "pressure" I could feel as I got faster. I would equate the sensation change as dramatic as moving my hand thru air on the easiest 25 to literally feeling the sensation I would feel pushing on the wall to climb out of the pool.
- So what happened? First I was able to discern a "tensioning" of my arm...but further examining this with Janes help it became apparent that this "coiling like a spring" as she described it was coming from my core....very interesting to really focus on this and realize how much that changed everything.....from there it extended to my catch....and ultimately the entire stroke movement thru the water.
- What next? We asked a few other swimmers to work on this as well and t change their focus to their core and it was amazing that all of them said the same thing....they could not feel anything in that area...when we asked to try and tense it resulted in other parts of the stroke falling apart...
- Thoughts for now; I really do think that to change these things takes an incredible amount of breaking down the stroke via drill work as has been discussed over and over here...the difference is really taking the time to think specifically how these drills translate to actually swimming...so many people I see do drills without a real sense of their purpose.
I think the key drills for me at this stage continue to be variations of sculling, the "arrow" drill shown on a link in an earlier thread that U of A uses and head of swimming (tarzan).
So....my coffee has run out and I have bloviated enough for now....very interesting for me however!
www.youtube.com/watch
check out this 2 beat kick on manadou
I saw this clip a month or so ago and have been trying to learn it since. I find that it takes about half a length for me to get the timing right with the hip rotation and hand entry then I can really feel the propulsion it generates. I've also noticed that the side I'm breathing on makes a difference in how effective the kick is.
Any comments or advice, Dave, or anyone else?
Cool clip of the 400 free, Dave.
Dave... When you say you want to increase the tempo of your 2-beat kick, do you mean you want to increase your arm turnover? And thus increase the leg tempo? I'm a little confused... What do you use in meets now? 4 beat?
I am a reformed one-beat kicker (left leg only, every time I recovered the right arm). Poolraat, the one thing I had to watch when doing a 1 or 2 beat kick was to not let the legs get too wide. Sometimes when you feel like the kick is really powerful, it is getting too wide... you are indeed generating a lot of power, but the drag is killing you. Make sense?
Poolraat, the one thing I had to watch when doing a 1 or 2 beat kick was to not let the legs get too wide. Sometimes when you feel like the kick is really powerful, it is getting too wide... you are indeed generating a lot of power, but the drag is killing you. Make sense?
I think I have a fairly tight kick. One thing my coach had me work on a lot over the last 2 years. I've just noticed that timing of the kick with the rest of the body is critical to maximize its benefit and because it is something new it's taking a while to get it right. Plus since I started swimming only a few years ago with no prior swimming background developing the "feel" takes a bit longer for me. When the timing is right it's isn't just the kick that is generating the forward motion but everything combined.
Paul,
You mention that when you bring your time down and your "kick kicks in", you end up adding a stroke to your stroke count. At least that is what I think you are saying.
I tried some easy lengths and my stroke count was 18. When I cranked up my kick to maximum impulse, my stroke count came down to 16.
This sounds crazy but I'm thinking that my lighter kick cadence is actually a bit faster than my maximum kick cadence for power. During more relaxed swimming, not only is the drive portion of the kick reduced, but it lends itself to a faster stroke cadence and also there is more slipping.
When I crank up my kick, I am bound to a certain cadence and the strokes feel long and strong. the other thing I notice alot is that everything feels right in the world when at wide open throttle. I never seem to have the right balance when just grinding slow laps.
I need to study this more, it was just my initital impression today. I've just started to pay attention to SPL.
Rtodd....the ability to change up ones stroke via tempo change in stroke and or kick in my opinion is th holy grail of high level racing....its also on of the hardest things to sort out.
I've found I literally have at least 3 "gears"; 1st gear = cruise w/two beat kick and about 11 spl (yards).....2nd gear = 6 beat kick w spl of 11/13 range (200 pace)....3rd gear = 8beat kick and increase up to 14/15 spl (full sprint)
Back in the old days we did lot of fartlek (sp?) which I never have stopped....basically its a longer swim (300+ yards) where at any time during the swim you shift thru these gears.....fun, helpful an insighful training....
I learned about fartlek from running, but never tried to do a fartlek swim. This is a great idea to feel how the stroke changes with immediate comparison.
I never knew of an 8 beat kick!! To me 6 feels very natural. Is the 8 awkward at first? I'll have to try it. I'll try to find some video of it.
I am a two beat kicker and enjoyed seeing Manadou's version. I will point out that she increases her tempo off the start and turns before settling into 2 beat. Also, her entire leg seems to be very flexible and I bet she gets incredible thrust from each kick. The rest of us old codgers need to work the two beat efficiency so we do more than help our body balance (which is a very good thing) but actually get some propulsion from it.
I saw this clip a month or so ago and have been trying to learn it since. I find that it takes about half a length for me to get the timing right with the hip rotation and hand entry then I can really feel the propulsion it generates. I've also noticed that the side I'm breathing on makes a difference in how effective the kick is.
Any comments or advice, Dave, or anyone else?
I have been trying to increase the tempo of my 2 beat, but I've got a lot of work to do before I will use it in competition.
Dave - Ah, that makes sense... trying to get the 2-beat kick down for the 500 and up.
We are at opposite ends... I am trying to go from my natural 1 or 2 beat kick up to a 6 beat kick for the 100 and down! :)
Does anyone remember what kind of kick Janet Evans used? I remember her arm stroke was that very high stroke rate windmill but I totally don't remember her legs...
I learned about fartlek from running, but never tried to do a fartlek swim. This is a great idea to feel how the stroke changes with immediate comparison.
You can do fartlek kicking too. I do, and it's entertaining and beneficial. I can't do that 2 beat Laura Manadou kick at all, but it was amazing to watch and looked very efficient. Everyone else had higher kick counts. I did notice her SR went up the back half of the race, especially the last 100.
Boo, the Crocker video is gone now. The poster removed it. I wanted to watch him in action.
Feisty: Janet Evans was also a two beat kicker, I believe. High SR. Switched up breathing patterns a lot, breathing a lot on the right and then a lot on the left. Great EVF too.
Does anyone have suggestions on drills to work on for:
(1) hip/core rotation and the "winding of a coil" as described in the initial thread?
(2) more efficient 2 beat kick?
