Topic Poll

Let me briefly hijack this back in the direction of lofty minded analysis. Recall that when I started this thread, the concept was to decide things by vote. We have voted, and now it has become a long bunch of harrumphing harrangues of the sort you hear out of old men wearing rigs in Pariliament. I once interviewed researchers at the University of Minnesota Twin Study and learned that two of the most hereditable/genetically determined human personality traits were what might be termed authoritarianism/propriety/religiosity on the one hand, and Bohemianism/free spiritedness/anythinggoes bonvivant-ism on the other. Obviously, people can fit anywhere along this spectrum, but these are sort of the normal extremes. It seems to me that whenever you get human groups together, these extremes recognize their kindred spirits as well as their natural antagonists. The former justify their righteousness on the grounds of basic decency; the latter justify their rightness on free thinking, open mindedness, and tolerance to alternative possibilities. It's almost like Absolute vs. Relativistic ethics. What is striking to me in this debate is that all the women seem to me, at least, to be reasonable. Peter Cruise, too, seems eminently reasonable. And many other of the fellows, as well, especially those whose wit lacks venom seem reasonable. These groups never get along terribly well because they are trying to prove the moral superiority of their personality: control vs. live and let live; censor vs. let anything fly. If not censor, then try to hound off-topic subjects into other rooms, where I can virtually guarantee anyone here claiming to find such topics such wastes of time are much more likely to view than, say, toe craps and what to do about them. The most poignant things I've read on these threads lately are 1) Beth's daughter's healthy diagnosis, 2) SeaGurls isolation somewhere out in Oregon/Washington State, where she swims by her self and this is as close as she can find to true team camaraderie, and 3) the twin sisterhood of Beth and Fortess (I am an identical twin myself, so I feel for anyone who wants to have such a wonderful relationship.) The people who want to control things--and correct me if I am wrong--have all been men, and what they want to control tends to be primarily, when it comes down to it, flirtingesque spice of life conversations. I went out with my team tonight in Pittsburgh, and granted, a few who would have disagreed with the topics decided not to come, but over the course of the evening we talked about everything from hand dominance and natural freestyle breathing side, to "fluffing", to Happy Endings. Ribald? Certainly. But a lot of people find this stuff amusing, and where really is the harm. It breaks my heart to think that SeaGurl is out in the boonies of the wild west, surrounded by Aryan Nation Posse Comitatus training camps, swimming by herself, and having no place in the world besides right here where she can catch up on the catch up stroke drill as well as fluffing techniques. Put me in the Long Live Bohemianism Camp. Surely my mind is wandering this late in the evening and something entirely appropriate was intended here. ;)

I don't think anyone wins. It just makes people feel bad. If it is one thing I can't stand, it is people being mean for no reason. It's my pet peeve. If you say something mean and blindside someone for no reason, especially if it is a nice person, you can expect a response or retalliation. It's called baiting and I'm really tired of it.:dedhorse:

I don't think anyone wins. It just makes people feel bad. If it is one thing I can't stand, it is people being mean for no reason. It's my pet peeve. If you say something mean and blindside someone for no reason, especially if it is a nice person, you can expect a response or retalliation. It's called baiting and I'm really tired of it.:dedhorse: I agree with you and even though I've been ready to make a comment in response to some of the posts on this thread, I've just "bit my tongue" and moved on. Actually I'm a bit surprised that this thread hasn't been closed.

Leslie, as I posted previously, I most certainly was not attacking you personally. Lindsay understood my intention quite clearly. I am duly impressed with your top ten rankings, of which I obviously have none. Likewise, I am confident that your team's workouts are intense and challenging. Rest assured that I will take you up on your invitation and drop in for a workout if I am in your area (as I have done with Masters teams in Boston, Phoenix, Chicago, and of course Austin). Saturday just wasn't feasible. THIS POST ILLUSTRATES WHY PMS SHOULD NOT BE PUBLISHED! Until Gull posted, this thread was dead and we had all left it alone after FlyQueen's last comment. I feel like this recent comment was just nasty baiting and Gull undoubtedly knew people would respond and not appreciate it. As I said before, to me, there is no difference between profanity (are we scared of that too now?) and hatefulness. Just because the latter is not accompanied by a four letter word, does not make it any less objectionable. I think Geek and Gull are simply used to leading flame wars and decided the time was ripe again. Unfortunately, no one seems overly inclined to be tame lambs. It's really just a shame. Craig: I didn't especially think you were targeting only me at the time. But to re-start an argument in a new thread when a prior thread had been closed could be perceived that way. And the tone of this thread in general has been quite attack-mode. I tried to respond to the unnecessarily mean comments in a somewhat restrained manner. (Although I sparred back some, as I usually do. Feistress nature.) I really hate your post of today though. I said absolutely nothing about any rankings and you are now attempting to make me sound pompous with your "duly impressed" comment. I am far from it, I assure you. In fact, I am infinitely more likely to engage in the kind of self-deprecating humor you use rather than outright bragging. Thus, I am not "duly impressed" with your parting salvo and think less of you now for having made it since it only serves to demean me, unfortunately. As for the comments about my team, I'm sure our teams both do challenging practices. I was just defending my team. As I explained in an earlier post, some of my teammates are likely too much the joksters for your taste; others are more decorous and respectful. I shouldn't have said anything in the first place. I don't know what you mean by "I'm out." I hope it's just out of this thread because it would be very, very sad if you stopped posting. Until this thread, I had very much enjoyed all your posts and sparring and general good humor and advice. So I'm hoping it's just the thread that's disgusted you, as it has others. I certainly understand your position about decorum and respect it. Believe me, I will not mention undergarments again. I would just like to be respected in turn. I appreciate posters efforts to defend myself and others. Outright attacks tend to cause counter-attacks. It is a very mellow poster who can sit by idly and say nothing, even when they know that's the best policy. I include myself in the group that can't. Please don't mention any rankings though. I will refrain from posting any workout times as well. I would really hate to somehow be perceived as elitist. I abhor that. I'm just as interested in learning as the next person and I have many, many things to work on, which is why I started the breaststroke threads in the first place -- that being my most glaring of many deficiencies. And, for the record, I also suck at freestyle and my twin and many others can trounce me in the 100 and 200. We won't even speak of distance where the entire forum makes me look like a wannabe amateur.

Beth and Kathy, I know I haven't behaved very well on this thread and it is embarressing to divulge in this junevile fight....I am guilty of my own imperfections. I just think the rules of engagement need to be "fair".....If the guy continues to bait me directly for a response then I suppose I give in to my ugly weakness.....Hopefully we can all still be friends? Newmastersswimmer Hi....that wasn't really directed at you. ;) I was trying to point out that it is only human nature to defend someone when you feel they have been hurt unnecessarily (spelling?). I have a temper too and, like you, it only comes out "to play" when I feel like I have to defend someone I care about against bullies. I love my twin...don't mess with my sis.

I know I haven't behaved very well on this thread and it is embarressing to divulge in this junevile fight....I am guilty of my own imperfections. I just think the rules of engagement need to be "fair".....If the guy continues to bait me directly for a response then I suppose I give in to my ugly weakness.....Hopefully we can all still be friends? Who knew the subject of NSR humor and SR purity would be such a vast unbreachable gulf? Gull was absolutely baiting you, and it was inappropriate to publish a PM. I refrained from publishing them in the past because other posters are usually not interested in reading about an overly nasty personal disagreement and it is none of their business anyway. Indeed, as Beth and Peter make clear, they'd much rather skip it and stick to swimming and humor. I don't think anyone blames you for punching back. As Rich said, the poo thrower often gets poo back. Others have said your defense of those attacked is more like Lancelot than any "ugly weakness." I appreciated the defense. I'm sure others did too. Unfortunately, this whole thread may have a somewhat chilling effect on posters. That is sad. Those who are quieter or who defer to the thought police or are just nonconfrontational -- and should be respected -- may bite their tongues further. Everyone else will be walking on eggshells. But maybe that was what was intended -- to have us walk on eggshells or stop posting. Certainly a conceivable strategy. If anyone leaves the forum, it would be a loss. There's no reason for it. No reason for me or others to be called slackers or flirts or whatever either. It's ridiculous. I love you too, twin. :smooch: You have made my time on the forum a joy. I think all FAF Sista's have a bit of temper.

I kinda think calling someone a piece of **** is a bit more wrong along with the coward comment, but that is what this forum has turned to. Well, since the "coward" comment was in a PM, I guess you're in favor of publishing them too? Is this what the forum has turned into? Publishing PMs to use as a swipe/bait in a thread? Perhaps it's accurate to characterize a veiled effort at disguising a personal attack as "cowardly?" I've said it before, Geek, why don't you start a rousing new thread and we can all go at it on a meaty swimming related topic such as foreign swimmers. Perhaps we can argue with gusto about the topic rather than solely attacking the posters themselves. Gull should have heeded Peter's advice. He should also take him up on the advice to get a beer.

how about we start a usms dating forum? I'm going to assume this is sarcastic or perhaps an attempt to deter further sniping? Or is this a snipe itself? it certainly could be perceived that way. Please clarify. My thick skin is getting thinner after today's volley. And I had tried to be nice and neutral and start a thread on breakouts and post on weight lifting ...

.Here's a poster who has done nothing but say nice things to you and Geek every since she's been here....but then you and the Geek felt the need to blindside her one day and try your best to humiliate her in public. Newmastersswimmer I really hope this has not been the point of all these posts.

This seems very genuine to me. As a matter of fact, it seems to include a compliment on your swimming times. What is all the fuss about Fortress? And it seems as if you are looking for a fight with jsmwbnc...why? Wow. I thought the weekend would see things cool off around here. I was not trying to make a fuss, Matt. It was Gull who felt compelled to comment today after everything had cooled off. And I am not picking a fight with jsmwbnc. That's why I asked for a clarification. Is that not permitted either? It's sometimes difficult to know someone's tone, especially a new poster. If he was just joking, then I welcome the humor, believe me. I see he clarified. I'm all for drinking beer and humor too!!!!!!! I don't think anyone using the words "duly impressed" is intending a compliment. The tone of the post was undoubtedly sarcastic. I don't think I misinterpreted it.