Elite vs. Fitness

I am for sale. But no one wants me.

Has anyone noticed how civil this potentially incendiary debate is? Why, in the pre-Return to Civility days this would have devolved into a name-calling, trash-talking, late-blooming mudfest by now.

Makes me long for the good ole days where someone called gull80's avatar a bird flu plagued pigeon.

Mr Goodsmith: Did you attend the 1987 Short Course Nationals at Stanford? Or the 1988 Long Course Nationals in Buffalo? I know you were swimming back then and in those days those type of meets finished at 11:00 PM. I do not recall in the last 5 years or so of any USMS National meet being done excessively late. If the meet ends at 3 or 4 now, that is a lot better than what happened over 15 years ago. Also your second paragraph should read "Why wouldn't Toyota contact USMS to be a sponsor similar to the arrangement they have with USA Swimming. Believe me USMS would jump at the chance to have a non swimming sponsor like that and maybe we have contacted Toyota about an opportunity to be a sponsor for USMS. I believe its Toyota that would be deciding weather it would be worth it to them to be a sponsor for our organization. Potentially we are both swimming organizations, but USA Swimming does have a much larger membership base and maybe that is the reason they would not sponsor us.

Mike, I'm about to use some of your comments as a point of departure for a mathematics discussion. Please don't interpret this as a criticism of you. I'm assuming you are a perfectly pleasant gentlemen who gets on well with your neighbors and is kind to children and small animals. Pools ain't cheap. Chemicals, life guards and other staff wages, substantial utility bills for heating and running the filtering system, maintenance of significant physical plant in the face of sometimes corrosive chemicals or other hostile environmental conditions, liability insurance. There's a reason why most pools are owned and operated by school districts, universities, military bases or municiple governments. Most pools couldn't break even off of user fees, and they have to turn to larger entities to close the budget gap based on the value the pool provides to that larger entity. Mike characterizes pool managers as "whoring out" their facilities to outside groups. But let's look at numbers. My impression is that someone would reasonably expect to pay $50/month to be a "member" at a pool facility and have unlimited use during "open swim" time slots. (Note: that is on the high side, many facilities charge less.) One characteristic of some (not all) lap swimmers is that they want their lane during "prime time" (11am-1pm) because it fits their schedule. They also want their lane. Maybe they will split one without too much grumbling, but circle swimming even for experienced competitive swimmers is annoying because you will always get that so & so in your lane who is a whole lot faster or a whole lot slower than you. In a 6 lane pool, that maxs out at 12 swimmers splitting a lane at a time. Let's say people swim for 40 minutes each; that would mean 36 members in the pool during prime time on a given day. If you assume that members average 2 workouts a week (i.e. it's not the same 36 members all 5 days of the week), that is 90 members using the pool during the most desirable 2 hours of the day, or in dollars and cents, $4500 a month in revenue. Yes, there will be other revenue streams from other time slots, but $4500 will not go far maintaining a 6 lane, 25 yard pool for a month. Mike how much more are you willing to pay to swim when you want to swim? Enough to make a difference? Now let's look at some of the other uses of the pool. One reason we USMS members get so irritated with block-head pool managers is the compelling economic argument we can make to accomodate us. A good masters program has no trouble putting 4 or 5 people in a lane. If you assume the same $50/month swim team member fee (which is also a pretty fair estimate of market rate), you can see a swim team could pay double what lap swimmers are providing in membership dues, while still making generous allowances for coaches' pay and club overhead. Don't even get me started on higher density uses like water aerobics classes, or simply turning loose a pack of grade school kids from the local school district. In the first place, the outsiders are outbidding you, and in the second, the pool manager can't run the place solely on what you are providing. He has no choice but to look elsewhere to close the budget gap. Of course, pool use decisions are made for all sorts of other reasons than simple dollars and cents. If it was only about the money, lap swimming would ALWAYS lose. (However, if the village board is subsidizing the pool so its residents can go swim, yet the pool manager effectively cancels open swim because the swimming and water polo teams can pay so much more, watch how fast the subsidy will go away. There is a self-correcting balance at work.) My soap-box point is that everyone who uses and enjoys the pool needs to realize that everyone contributes to keeping the pool running, and we all need to show due regard for other people's uses. A lot of us have an "I got mine, Jack" mentality that causes us to think that if the manager will just give us what we want, and let all the other "little people" fit in around our desires, budgets will balance and everything will be OK. This is delusional. We're all in this together. With apologies to Sting and The Police: I don't want to bring a sour note Remember this before you vote We can all sink or we all float 'Cause we're all in the same big boat One pool is enough for all of us Matt

Has anyone noticed how civil this potentially incendiary debate is? Why, in the pre-Return to Civility days this would have devolved into a name-calling, trash-talking, late-blooming mudfest by now. originally posted by Bill S I believe that the reason why this discussion hasn't devolved to that level has to do with a particular missing ingredient in this debate.......and the clue about this missing ingredient comes from your quote above Bill....the "late blooming" part of your quote that is if you catch my drift?

when I get to a competition for warmups around 7:30 and I don't leave until 3:00 or 4:00 pm that is ONE HELL of a long day in my book. Especially when you consider there's no prelims and finals John, In Pacific, most of our local meets usually start at 9 am and if we finish by about 3 pm it is a smaller meet. You are very fortunate that you have such meets that allow you to finish much earlier. For giggles, why dont you do a time line of how long the day would be if you had just two heats of each age group. That would be something like 16 to 20 swimmers competing against each other. You would have about 50 heats total for each event - roughtly 12 age groups and two genders plus a couple for the oldest heats. - There are 18 contested events plus relays for short course. I dont think that having a major sponsor would affect the number of swimmers. For most swimmers, the meet entry fees are the least expensive part of the budget, it is the flight, the lodging and food that cost much more - and of course the beer money. You are right it does make for a long day, however, the swimmers usually are able to lie down and relax between events, your volunteers and deck officials, are on deck for quite a while. michael

Originally posted by knelson I think doing away with the three event limit for those who haven't made the cuts and/or making the cuts themselves more difficult would only drive the wedge further between the elites and the non-elites in masters. I personally think it's pretty cool that anyone can swim at Nationals. It's a great experience whether you win all your events or finish dead last. Actually as a turtle who swam at a Nationals, using my 3 events, I disagree. I don't understand why Nationals is not an all cut time event. Make the cuts slightly EASIER to make up for the 3 event thing, but to me, it should be somewhat of an elitest thing. World cuts are easier than our National times. I am able to get World cuts, and that stokes me more than going to Nationals with 3 non cuts. If the cuts were a bit easier, there is a chance some of us turtles would go on our time merit. As far as the elitist v non-elitist, personally I don't see it. Most swimmers, fast or slow are nice people, and don't put on airs.

Originally posted by Peter Cruise Geek- which name of yours would they be selling? Francois Boudelaire - my French/French Canadian moniker. Translates to Frank Bottom in English.

Jim, We will have to agree to disagree on what the definition of a LONG meet is. I'll tell you right now, when I get to a competition for warmups around 7:30 and I don't leave until 3:00 or 4:00 pm that is ONE HELL of a long day in my book. Especially when you consider there's no prelims and finals. It's just time finals. Why wouldn't USMS want to attract a sponsor like say... Toyota... for incremental budget dollars for the organization. Geek, I can't see this as an infringement on members privacy. Paul, please try to remember that I am the Good Smith. You are the Evil Smith. John Smith