Is there really a division between masters swimmers? i.e. one camp allied to a more low key fitness oriented approach with low membership growth vs. a meet oriented competitive (elite) camp?
This sounds ridiculous to me. I don't think I've ever run into anyone that acknowledged this debate on a pool deck.
What spawns this rift in Masters swimming? Is this an old guard vs. younger member phenonmenon?
Are there different motivations that exist that create this conflict in terms of the future of USMS? Why can't both coexist?
I say we poll some people out there and find out what they support.
John Smith
A couple of comments on this thread and the "morphing" of the original discussion.
- The original intent that JS was going for was to gauge whether or not registered swimmers with USMS felt the organization slanted its focus/mission to far in one direction or another. This came about from observations of people who attended the convention over the years and feeling of "us" vs. "them" seemed to permeate.....if you wanted to grow membership, have more meets, set reasonable qualifying standards, etc. you we're "elite". If on the other hand you wanted things to stay as they are and tended to be more oriented towad the fitness side of things then you we're in that camp.
- To any newbies who may feel that there is an "attitude".....having swam with dozens of teams all over the country I would say that this may be a misperception.....my wife and I find that people tend to hang together mostly because they have been in a lane/group for a long time...and often are busy chatting it up....easy to take it as elite or cliquish but I doubt its often the case.
- To the point above....in general when we are training with a new team its rare to have anyone approach us...but beacuse we are so loud and obnoxious we usually get to know people quickly....rather they want to know us or not! In fact...being a person who likes to shake things up a bit...I usually go to one of the slower lanes.....which often creates a little bit of a stir....right Brian (my coach at the Manatee's)....?! :banana:
- So....my suggestion.....don't "assume" anything unless someone outright says something rude....then go to the coach.
- As for anyone who is training and/or competing in MASTERS swimming who cops any kind of ELITIST attitude.....well all I can say is I hope someday they get a life!! :) Its MASTERS!!!!!
"ensignada,
In your post you refer to a "wall of elitism" which turned you off, but went no further to describe the phenomenon. I am very interested in knowing about what you encountered, not only to compare with my own experiences, but to address the perception that could be contrary to the good health of USMS. "
Michael - I approached a group of master's swimmers (women) in the locker room before their workout started, asking how long they'd been with the team, did they compete and mentioned my interest (albeit future interest). One woman looked me in square in the eye and told me that unless I could swim 4000 yds uninterupted, I wouldn't be able to keep up. Two others chimed in and said they had all swam in college (they were in their mid to late 20's?), so they were very "focussed". I got a similar reaction from a swimmer I approached after a workout. I have not talked to a coach as of yet.
I will pursue this further the closer I get to being ready to swim with the big kids. I've got big shoulders, and I understand the individual nature of the sport, but it would be so nice in the beginning to feel welcomed - especially after the first workout puts me in traction.
I appreciate all of your comments to my original posting. It feels great to be welcomed and and my intent understood here - and for right now that's enough support. Many, many thanks.
(Should we all have a group hug at this point?) :D
ensignada,
In your post you refer to a "wall of elitism" which turned you off, but went no further to describe the phenomenon. I am very interested in knowing about what you encountered, not only to compare with my own experiences, but to address the perception that could be contrary to the good health of USMS.
When I was younger, I was what may have been referred to as elite, meaning a fast, competitive swimmer, but always knew that Masters was filled with members having many different ability and dedication levels. I was happy to help others with stroke technique or encourage them to try a meet experience.
I am now in the position of not being in the fastest lane anymore, and am experiencing what it seems you and others have been subject to. The fast lane in my club is a clique that, for whatever reason, does not feel or practice "noblesse oblige" and rarely speak to anyone not in the lane. This is not healthy for the club or sport. Part of the result is that our club, while having about 160 members on Masters, has rarely more than 3 or 4 people at any swim meet. Others, myself included, choose to attach to other clubs that are more accepting of different ages and speeds, or have more to offer socially.
My general experience with the fastest of swimmers, the true cream of the crop (I know many in all ages) record setters and speed demons is that they are quite friendly and approachable. They have the knowledge of their accomplishments and the work needed to perform at a very high level, and do not need to put others down to get validation.
Unfortunately, I also have had experiences with "fitness" swimmers that can really make life miserable. Not a lot, but memorable ones just the same. They can be just as offputting as the "elite" swimmers I imagine you have referred to.
We are all in this together, for better or worse, so why not make it better? It is a truly rare facility that can afford to have but one person per lane at all times, so we may as well learn to get along.
If people would learn & use lane etiquette I think some of the "elitist" attitude would go away. It's hard to be gracious and friendly to somebody who is interfering with your workout, whether they are faster than you or slower and whether it's blundering or intentional.
I am now in the position of not being in the fastest lane anymore, and am experiencing what it seems you and others have been subject to. The fast lane in my club is a clique that, for whatever reason, does not feel or practice "noblesse oblige" and rarely speak to anyone not in the lane. This is not healthy for the club or sport. Part of the result is that our club, while having about 160 members on Masters, has rarely more than 3 or 4 people at any swim meet. Others, myself included, choose to attach to other clubs that are more accepting of different ages and speeds, or have more to offer socially.
My general experience with the fastest of swimmers, the true cream of the crop (I know many in all ages) record setters and speed demons is that they are quite friendly and approachable. They have the knowledge of their accomplishments and the work needed to perform at a very high level, and do not need to put others down to get validation.
I have witnessed a bit of "elitism" among folks in the "fastest lane" with my club too. You are only allowed in that lane if you meet certain criteria and like to do gnarly sets. However, we do have a broad cross section of ages and abilities on my team so we spread out amicably. Unfortunately, we don't have that many people competing in meets either despite the fact that we host meets and attendance is strongly encouraged.
As to the "cream of the crop," I have largely had the same experience as Michael. The world record holders and other ranked swimmers that I know are very gracious, friendly and willing to offer assistance. I have seen this at meets, at practice and on this forum. Offhand, I can only think of one or two notable exceptions of ego run amuck. But that just happens sometimes. Generally, as you say, the "elite," for lack of a better word, don't need further validation.
Ensignada:
I began only 1 1/2 years ago training masters. Just keep up the good work and compete if the urge strikes you. No better goal than to achieve great fitness and have fun while doing so!
Barb - When I first started swimming a few years ago I got a similiar attitude from a tri swimmer. He acted like he was too good to be bothered by questions from newbies. It's ironic, because now I train at a faster pace than he races. And I'm 20 years older.
Barb......first off anyone in their 20's hasn't even really paid taxes yet....so I wouldn't put much faith in their self importance.....in fact, check out some of the times that the womens 40-44 & 45-49 women are doing, then ask these 20ish gals if they'd make top 10......in either of those age groups.....my guess is the peacocks may pull their feathers in a bit....:thhbbb:
Its MASTERS!!
Barb:
As one of those old 45 year olds, I agree with Paul. They have barely started living. Wait until they launch careers, buy homes, possibly have children, juggle numerous responsibilities, etc. Then they'll see that it isn't all that easy getting your 4000 yards in like clockwork.
It can be hard joining a new team. Are there other women closer to your age on your team? They may be more understanding. Or not...
When I first started swimming with a very informal masters group at my local gym, there was a woman my age with some decent times that previously swam with a famous coach in our area, ran a summer swim team and generally had a high opinion of herself. She would occasionally make somewhat snide comments to me or give me "advice" on how to compete. I listened politely, but ignored the attempts at one-upmanship. I still see her a lot because now our daughters are at all the same meets ... She's not currently competing.
Fortunately, when I joined a real team, I found a lot of 35-60 year olds with a few youngsters as well. But none of them, I don't believe, would ever make fun of a newbie's abilities. (You might get ragged on, as I do, for missing practices.) So try to ignore those catty 20 somethings and just concentrate on your own improvement. You may improve more quickly than you -- or they -- think. Once you check out the "current top times" (competition tab), you can ask them if they can beat Susan V. or Karlyn P-N or Lisa Dahl. I don't think so either. :thhbbb: There are some amazing older women swimming. And the fact that you're there getting your feet wet, and willing to try your best, makes you amazing too! It's not easy to start over. It took me 24 years to get back in the pool.
Barb......first off anyone in their 20's hasn't even really paid taxes yet....so I wouldn't put much faith in their self importance.....in fact, check out some of the times that the womens 40-44 & 45-49 women are doing, then ask these 20ish gals if they'd make top 10......in either of those age groups.....my guess is the peacocks may pull their feathers in a bit....:thhbbb:
Its MASTERS!!
Sometimes, a swimmer with "attitude" only has that attitude because they are big fish in a little pond. Humility is usually learned when they have to swim with big fish in a big pond.
I'm just happy being a fish.
