Help My Flutter Kick is Horrible!

Well, George, that's your view. But you haven't competed in awhile. I think a good kick is critical too, and I do a lot of fast kicking in training. I am not a "full stroke" person. By definition, it can't be a "waste of time" if it results in national rankings. Thus, I am hard pressed to believe that ande and Paul Smith are wasting their time kicking. Plus, in the long run, it helps save the shoulders. Good technique alone won't do that. Are you sure that hotel pool you're swimming in is even 15 yards long? :thhbbb:

george, being a fast kicker is a critical factor to being a fast swimmer proven scientific fact I assure you, FAST KICKING is NOT a waste of time but your little pokes and prods saying that kicking doesn't matter are a waste of time. And even worse, many people believe you to be an authority on swimming providing incorrect information on the topic you're supposed to be an expert in, erodes your authority. It's true that arms provide more propusion than legs in freestyle but kicking fast is very very important in freestyle. Fast kicking is critical in breastroke, butterfly and backstroke. even with out considering SDK. Maybe back in your day you could slide by and still be world class with a weak kick but not any more and never again. watch the 50, 100, 200, & 400 frees at the olympics those events will be won by fast kickers even the 800 & 1,500 swimmers are strong kickers Ande All I know is I swam in a meet last summer against a kid who swam a :53.01 in 100m free (long course). We taped the race and after looking at it, I noticed that he was kicking like crazy, seemed to work for him.

Well, George, that's your view. But you haven't competed in awhile. I think a good kick is critical too, and I do a lot of fast kicking in training. I am not a "full stroke" person. By definition, it can't be a "waste of time" if it results in national rankings. Thus, I am hard pressed to believe that ande and Paul Smith are wasting their time kicking. Plus, in the long run, it helps save the shoulders. Good technique alone won't do that. Are you sure that hotel pool you're swimming in is even 15 yards long? :thhbbb: Boy am I glad I read through all the unread posts here before responding! You hit the nail on the head. I'm sure the people working on their kick have a few more years before they put themselves out to competitive pasture. If you're just swimming from here to there, yes, there's not really much point to working on your kicking, but if you're trying to get from point a to point b as quick as possible, every bit helps and thats where kicking comes in. :weightlifter:

Hi All, I'm a new member of club "Horrible Flutter Kickers". I'm back in the pool last October after over 20 years off; so I'm horrible all over the board too but I'm improving a little bit after every pratice ( 3 times at week, 1 alone (starting from january) and 2 with a group and a coach.) I'm working on legs in gym and ankle flexibility at home. About kicking I've read all this great thread and I've manage to improve my kick week after week. I use a kickboard, a small and light ones, starting from the wall because without it I've a bad balance and need to breath a lot and I'll lost the focus on the legs. In october was a real pain to even finish a lap with a kickboard, an embarrassing 45-50sec for only 25 meters. Early january, starting to train alone, I've focused more on kicking and I've managed to lower the time at 30.5 last saturday I've lowerer it at 28.1 secs I looking for to get under 28 tomorrow. When I'll break the 22-23 secs for 25 meters I'll start to train for 50s. If I can ask, What's a roll start ? Way to go Ande!

I am a full stroke person and I spend little time in the water. Fast kicking only is a thing I will not do. What I want is an efficient kick that works well with the arm stroke. To kick so hard during training to me is a waist of effort. The propulsive force of the legs while swimming is minimal when you compare it to the propulsion we get from the upper part of the body. Now I am not saying leg action in the crawl is not needed but the legs are not the driving force. I prefer my crawl swimming to be full stroke with a few SDKs off the dive and turn. I prefer my butterfly to be full stroke. I do do my SDK as part of my fly never more than 15 yards after a dive or turn. I must ad I do some sculling and kicking on my back but the kicking is to make sure the kick technique is correct.

These threads are all about opinions. You are right I have not competed for a while. When I do it will be my way. I am again trying to get into the pool to be ready to compete and I will. I had a little set back with Chuckie's injury. I have again been out of the water for a few weeks. It is like starting over again. I will not be doing any thing but full stroke training, swimming no more than 1000m at a time. That 1000m may be done 3x a day. I am registering so when I enter I will be accepted to swim masters. I have only been swimming 10 times since Dec 22nd but we will see. The 75 year old age group does not seem overloaded with too many really fast guys in the 4 or 5 events that I will swim in. Chuckie has kept me busy she fell, broke her arm two weeks ago, then an operation on her eyes one week ago. She has another knee operation happening in early March. You should see how good I am in the kitchen, and doing the laundry. I still jog to the laundry room. You are all welcome to kick, kick, kick. I think this kicking is a great conditioner. But the front end is going to make you a faster swimmer. All that kicking will make you faster because you will be in better condition.

Give it to me I can take it and I won't even whine. These are the times I wiil have to swim 75 to 79 age group www.usms.org/.../toptenlist.php

I wouldn't say it's a hard and fast rule. For sprints maybe, but not necessarily for distance, at least at the masters level. I've heard from a couple very fast people, including the national champion in my age group in the 1650 free, that he has a weak kick.

All that kicking will make you faster because you will be in better condition. That's an improvement...it isn't a waste of time anymore? :) For OW swims I think the kick isn't that important (though the CORE still is). For the mile I can certainly understand how weaker kickers can still be very competitive. Most of us also swim 100s, 200s, etc, where the kick is a very significant part of the race. Based on this and other posts of yours, I think you are not advocating that kicking is a completely unimportant part of swimming, just that it can be worked on to the appropriate extent during "regular" swim sets. (Let me know if I am misinterpreting you.) I think even the most ardent kick-supporter spends more time on the "front end" than on kick-specific sets. But doing exercises to isolate certain aspects of swimming -- kicking, pulling, hypoxic sets, dryland work -- is valuable to me and many others. I spend 40% of my time underwater in SC backstroke races, and I know they have improved by very intense kick-specific sets as well as hypoxic work. It also keeps things more interesting; I might get bored otherwise. But certainly everyone needs to integrate it all together in the end. There are also many paths to fast swimming. I am extremely hesitant to be a strong advocate of what I know works for ME (such as kicking sets) as "the answer" for everyone at all levels. In fact, the following are the only unequivocal statements I am willing to make: -- Do things in training that you enjoy. (Mix it up, try new things.) -- Work as hard at it as you can. (It will probably make you faster but even if it doesn't, it still makes you fitter.) -- If you are really interested in testing your limits in swimming, you need to (a) find a good coach and (b) swim in meets and use the results as feedback. Preferably you should do race-pace things in practice, too, and use them to improve your racing skills and conditioning. Good luck to you. I wish Chuckie speedy recovery.

Chris - Yes the kick can be worked on in swim sets. When I swam the Marathon races I used to do lots of fast swimming. During off season it was 50s and 100s repeats in a pool. I also did 5min swims at near all out and I certainly kicked hard. However it was always full stroke. When I finally got out doors to swim I would swim 5min sprints every 20 mins and these were done at near all out I called these sprints. My sprints were done with a big kick. But when doing long swims I did a relaxed leg kick action. I could not keep a big kick action for 3 hours. During a long race if my stroke pace was slow I kicked harder to make my stroke rate pick up. I would rather see all leg action done in full stroke swimming. I think kick sets would take from full stroke. Therefore to me kick sets without swimming is a waste of time. Fort It is almost 10 years since I have competed. My last race was 10 years ago this May. That was after after a 30 year no compete time. This is going to be my ten year comeback. I did swim during all of my no compete years I taught swimming and did lots of demonstrations to my students. I still believe the legs are for balance and when you are swimming fast the legs must kick fast while you swim fast or they would not balance your arm stroke. Legs to me are still not the driving propulsion part of the stroke the upper body is. What is the upper body when I say upper body. I mean from the hips up. The lower part of the body to me is the legs. I used to also teach hockey in the old days and thought you would like to see a few pointers we gave. �� Never sacrifice correct technique for a high number of reps or sets �� Maintain neutral alignment of the head & neck through movement, chin 3-4” off the chest �� Move slowly throughout Range of Motion for strength �� Fatigue weaker muscles first – oblique, upper & lower abdominal, back �� Originate movement in the abdominal region �� Maintain a tight contraction of the abdominal throughout the entire exercise �� Limit Range of Motion of the abdominal region to 45 degrees or less �� Train opposite and opposing muscle groups �� Choose a variety of exercises and mix them up