Tumble Turns

I agree with Bob. I always start my turns with one arm (the arm that's already out in front of me as I come into the wall). Draconis, Are you British by chance? We have a British girl who swims with us, and she's the only other person I've heard use the term "tumble turn." It has a special ring to it, charming!

There is also a generation connotation to "tumble turn." I have been competing since 1955 and in those days it was called that. I'm not sure when it changed to flip turn. Maybe when the AAU rules finally did away with the hand touch on the freestyle turn, and the turn became more of a "flip." When you had to touch with your hand, it was a much different turn than the present one.

If you are referring to the freestyle flip turn the advantage of the two arm pull is to propell you faster through the flip and give you a streamline off the wall... Not sure how productive a one arm pull into a flip turn would be...:D

I use a one-arm pull for a very simple reason: When you're swimming freestyle or backstroke, you normally have one arm in front of you. So in order to do a two-arm pull, you'd have to recover the other arm while leaving your leading arm in front of you, which means that you are effectively pausing in your stroke and just gliding into the wall. But if you use a one-arm pull, you don't need a pause - every time you finish a stroke, you're in the proper position to initiate your turning pull. Bob

Oh no I'm not British, and I'm not from the 1950s either. My former coach who taught me the turn a long time ago used to call it tumble turn all the time, and that's where I picked up the term. I"m asking this question about the two arm initiated pull because a teammate of mine in our team does it beautifully, and she comes out of the turn faster than all the boys. We would go into the turn together,us with one arm pull and she with the two arm, and start flipping at the same time, and she'd come up of the turn a bit earlier than us. I know that a two arm turn can help you achieve faster speed and greater momentum to turn. Is this enough to compensate for the speed loss when you glide with one arm in front of you waiting for the other arm to catch up? Then you get a speed boost as you go into the turn. Is this overall slower or faster or equal to the one arm pull? Thanks.

I thought a flip turn was initiated with both arms at your side rather than in front. So you pull with one arm, keep it at your side while you pull with the other and with both arms pointing backward you flip leaving both arms pointing in the new forward direction. No? Originally posted by Bob McAdams I use a one-arm pull for a very simple reason: When you're swimming freestyle or backstroke, you normally have one arm in front of you. So in order to do a two-arm pull, you'd have to recover the other arm while leaving your leading arm in front of you, which means that you are effectively pausing in your stroke and just gliding into the wall. But if you use a one-arm pull, you don't need a pause - every time you finish a stroke, you're in the proper position to initiate your turning pull. Bob

On no LindsayNB. We are talking about initiating the turn. True, normally people would complete their last stroke with one arm and then flip. But I've seen (refer to my previous post) people who, on their last to second last stroke, recover one arm, but instead of pulling it back then turn, they leave it in front and recover the second arm as well, then do a butterfly-like pull to get their arms beside their body and turn. I'm asking which one everyone prefers to do? The latter (the double arm pull) seems to get you more speed to turn, making you turn slightly faster (my observation), but of course, as Bob McAdams has pointed out, effectively slows down your speed near the turn.

Originally posted by LindsayNB I thought a flip turn was initiated with both arms at your side rather than in front. So you pull with one arm, keep it at your side while you pull with the other and with both arms pointing backward you flip leaving both arms pointing in the new forward direction. No? You are not required to use any kind of arm pull to initiate your turn. And it is certainly possible to initiate it with both arms at your sides. But an arm pull will add additional angular momentum, causing you to flip faster. What I do is to synchronize my final arm stroke with the initiation of my turn. So I sweep my arm under my body while at the same time tucking my head forcefully against my chest and drawing my legs into a sort of a squat (therby reducing my moment of inertia). When my arm reaches my hip, I turn the palms of both of my hands forward and grab onto the water, using it to help pull me the rest of the way over. I end up with my feet against the wall and my fingertips in line with the top of my head, ready to snap into a streamline. Bob

Originally posted by Draconis On no LindsayNB. We are talking about initiating the turn. True, normally people would complete their last stroke with one arm and then flip. But I've seen (refer to my previous post) people who, on their last to second last stroke, recover one arm, but instead of pulling it back then turn, they leave it in front and recover the second arm as well, then do a butterfly-like pull to get their arms beside their body and turn. I'm asking which one everyone prefers to do? The latter (the double arm pull) seems to get you more speed to turn, making you turn slightly faster (my observation), but of course, as Bob McAdams has pointed out, effectively slows down your speed near the turn. When I watch people do this,it looks so undnatural. I'm not really sure that they get that much extr force either.