Paul:
Thanks for your suggestions regarding this. I answered Mr Goodsmith two days ago and I agreed that he did have some valid points just like you do that need to be explored. Unfortunately my response to him was in the other thread and he responded to me saying that he would work with Mark Gill on a proposal so that he could possibly get it on the agenda of the International Committee meeting. By now anyone that comes of this website that is a delegate to the convention will see this and want to be at the meeting for a discussion. I see that Michael Moore who is the Meet Director next year has been reading these posts and correcting us about our misconceptions about FINA. This is good and possibly Sandi Rousseau can have room to put this on the agenda at the USAS convention.
The reason I brought up past practices of 17 years ago is to let people know what happened and how it was perceived by FINA, USMS, foreign swimmers, and the separate FINA International federations. Again the only feedback I received was from swimmers that I competed against at the International meets I attended. I do remember the feedback at the conventions and it was not positive. I am sure if this gets to the meeting that it will be discussed because as I look at the current International Committee I see a lot of people that were very active back in 1988 and they remember as well as I what went on.
I know you will not be attending the convention but if you and Mr. Goodsmith draft a proposal of both your ideas and give it to Mark Gill for is input and possible suggestions I think that would be a good start. The earliest this could possibly take effect would be in 2008. Next year is pretty much out of the picture after reading what Michael Moore said about the FINA meetings.
Also the US Open records proposal will have to be an emergency rule change and get 90% vote of the delegates to pass. I am not sure if you guys want to put the time and effort to get this through this year. I know this would be the year to do it because of all of the foreign swimmers swimming in the meet next year.
Originally posted by Paul Smith
There is a "big picture" here that John, myself and others have that seems to be missed in this discussion......a pride and desire to represent our country.
I don't want to "dis" my local club and I'm not trying to piss off the foreign teams or FINA but the reality is in an International competition we have the oppuruntiy to elevate the recognition of our sport world wide if we we're to creat natonal teams for these events.
I agree. That's one reason watching Worlds or the Olympics in non-masters competition is so much more exciting than Nationals or any other meet.
There is a "big picture" here that John, myself and others have that seems to be missed in this discussion......a pride and desire to represent our country.
I don't want to "dis" my local club and I'm not trying to piss off the foreign teams or FINA but the reality is in an International competition we have the oppuruntiy to elevate the recognition of our sport world wide if we we're to creat natonal teams for these events.
As John pointed out to Allen its also for fun.....even if the reality is that people would have to accept being on A, B, C relays etc. (I have been on our "B" mixed medley the last couple of years in Co and had a great time trash talking with the A relay and making bets!).
I think there is merit to exploring this wit FINA, hopefully Nancy can chime in on ths discussion!
Um, Connie, meet Skip. Skip, meet Connie. Now that you two have been introduced properly, perhaps we can discuss the dangers of misunderstanding in internet communications. I think that has happened here.
Although I do not believe that he meant any harm or insult by his remarks, I also am not sure what point he was trying to make, and accept his apology for having put me on the wrong team. I do not believe that it was so egregious that he needs to be singled out. There are lots of mistakes made on these DF threads and I have made some doozies.
I mixed up Michael with Wayne McCauley. Julie pointed out my error and I made the proper response apology. About the doing the records at the meet, I said it was a nice jesture to help another team with the records at Nationals. I meant that statement as a positive statement. Not all LMSC's and Clubs have a policy that the registrars do the meet records at Nationals. So I interpret my statement as positive and not negative. When my LMSC and Club ran the Long Course National meet, I did the records and I was not our Registrar.
I am very well aware of who Mark Moore is and I am very well aware of who Wayne McCauley is and they are very well aware of who I am. I was trying to make an example to Mr. Goodsmith about the differences in recruiting a World team all over the country to a team recruiting in the general area of the LMSC. In that last paragraph of my post I referenced the wrong people. I know Michael Heather understands and I appreciate his comments. About Julie doing the records I never said anything about her being unattached as derogatory in doing the meet records. Actually when she pointed out my error I felt embarrassed and tried to throw a compliment. I have known both Michael and Julie for almost 18 years and they both know me so there was no malice regarding this.
I never said anything about the San Diego masters or the Canadian swimmer and PNA swimmer that was on there World Record relay, that was horn Head and Kirk Nelson making those references.
The whole purpose of the past practices was to show Mr. Goodsmith what went on 1988 and how the swimmers in USMS might not want to repeat the practice. The postive out of that is that the Smith brothers will work with Mark Gill to change system the way it is now to having FINA member countries compete in the meet with the swimmers reresenting there delegations not there clubs. I still plan on addressing Swimmer Bill about his thoughts about what went on in 1988.
Originally posted by Swimmer Bill
...and the bidding starts at....
(just kidding, Julie!)
:)
One look at my recent times will show that scenario highly unlikely!
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
Now I read a lot of the posts recently and say Michael Heather's one makes sense to me to get on a team if the current one does not have representation at a National Meet. I know he swam for Mission Viejo and his wife actually did the records for the meet so I don't have a problem with that. Its the INTENT that matters. People in the last few days have provided evidence of INTENT of ethics regarding this issue. It does not take a rhodes scholar to figure the different INTENTS of what clubs and swimmers are doing.
You're in error saying that Michael swam for Mission Viejo. Michael is attached to Rosebowl Aquatics and did not change his attachment to or from Mission Viejo.
His wife, Julie is our LMSC Registrar, and If I remember correctly the rules state that she has to swim unattached, and she does. I'm not sure what you mean by the statement that his wife was doing the records for the meet, and why you'd have any sort of a problem with that. Almost sounds like you're making some sort of an alusion (errorneous at that, and an uninformed assumption) that something was not up to par? What sort of a problem would you have with a long standing reputable and respected Registrar doing the records for the meet anyways?
(You can look up the Nationals results and you'll find a substantiation for what I just said)
You may have Michael confused with our LMSC Chairman, who attached to our team this year, mainly because he's known our coach for a while, and both are very active in the LMSC Comittees, AND our chairman's team disbanded earlier this year due to losing pool time. So, partially due to friendship, and partially due to frustration with his home team pool director, he decided to change team affiliation.
For example, several of our satellite swimmers have been attached to the team for at least 2 years or longer.
I also happen to personally know the 'canadian' that swims for SDSM, if you check results as far back as 2002, you'll see that he's swam attached to SDSM that whole time, and I know that he is a close personal friend of one of the SDSM swimmers.
(Although, he might attach to our team soon considering he found me more charming to hang out with then his buddy :p )
If some of you think that these people have suddenly attached to the teams just because of the nationals or a chance to be on a winning team or have been recruited, you are mistaking. Plus, it takes little more then a last minute decision to unattach from one team and attach to another, and it should be voluntary. One of the comments about if a swimmer attached to a team "b", and later on wanted to reattach back to the team "a", suggesting that team "a" shouldn't allow them back is an intimidation tactic, and much more unsportsman like then someone wanting to switch teams becaue they're under the impression that the grass is greener...
