Butterfly, Discussion on Overall Technique

Former Member
Former Member
Butterfly, Discussion on Overall Technique I am going to reply to this post with my summary interpretation on fly technique but first I will describe where I am with the fly and how I got here. About a year ago I casually decided to improve my horrible swimming "technique" and re-teach myself freestyle, back, and *** strokes. Somewhere along the line I started playing with the butterfly stroke too which was particularly helpful in making sure I got the most exhausting workouts. So far, my mission is to improve my enjoyment of exercise and make the best out of my limited opportunity for swimming which does not include any formal instruction (Masters would be fantastic but it's not in my near term plans.) In fact, my swimming season could end anytime now so I am taking this opportunity to record what I think I've figured out. In reading older posts on this board, I came across a comment from someone who wrote: practice, study, practice, study, practice, ... That is what I've done. I've searched out advice on the net, downloaded and studied video, and taken a lot of notes. I haven't come across any type of consensus that the best video instruction or book to buy is "such and such" or found too much consensus on anything other that it's a hard stroke to learn. Other than for a couple of sources, info has come in bits and pieces. A personal instructor and film of myself would be great, maybe it will happen someday. I began attempting butterfly without even having learned how to dolphin kick which is what I worked on first. After several workouts, I started getting the legs in control and could actually do some fast but very inelegant "butterfly" for up to 25 meters at a shot. My exercise routine has been pretty consistent in rotating two laps of each of the four strokes. I gradually started reading more info on the fly and I discovered I was supposed to be kicking twice instead of once. Initially, it seemed impossible to kick twice but (within a couple sessions) I worked in the second downkick by doing (what I thought of as a) "bunny hop" kick shortly after the first kick ended. For many a workout I worked on arm motion and breathing the most and took lots of notes in the evening. I was not getting the progress I was looking for which made me try even harder. Then I found that some recommend learning with one kick (but I wasn't going back to one now), and I realized the improper timing of my second kick but I was unable to do anything about it. I also discovered that some advice I had apparently misinterpreted had led me into unknowingly dragging my legs straight during part of the stroke. Then I wrote what I'll call my first brilliant rule of butterfly: "You must learn to rhythmically undulate the entire torso properly for butterfly, and be able to control it, or you will not succeed. This is the first order of business. Do this and learning the rest is a matter of time and perseverance. Don't learn the butterfly undulation, and time don't matter." Since then, I've been working on undulation almost exclusively. I am very bad at forcing myself to do drills for very long and for the other strokes I do not do any significant drills. For butterfly, I had been doing some isolated kicking and body movements and also plenty of non-breathing and slower motion butterfly. But it hadn't been helping enough. So I started swimming some more intense laps of just undulating and practicing undulating at the surface. Also, I've tried practicing with the arms recovering underwater instead of over and also swinging the arms over and under while applying little underwater resistance. No matter what I did, I found it hard to correct my fly undulation while pulling and the timing of the subsequent (second) kick. I tried mixing in a stroke or two of fly in the midst of a lap of otherwise plain undulation, but I found it too awkward to revert to anything else once got into a full fly stroke. In particular, as far as I can tell, plain undulation meshes with one kick and not two. I haven't yet tried alternating/mixing in other strokes (like *** and freestyle) with fly in the same lap or even one-armed fly. There are too many possible things to try and learn and none standout as best, so I prefer short drills, getting on with butterfly, and not overly interrupting the rest of my medley. My breakthrough was in concentrating almost exclusively on undulation though the catch, pull, and push. I think of my body as pushing into an arc, but only in one segment at a time starting with the chest. First there is downward pressure on the chest, then the stomach, then the thighs, and then the lower legs. And by really exaggerating this motion I can finally change the pattern of my undulation. This also helps to loosen up my legs which was desperately needed. However, what I've gotten so far is a tiring jerky stroke with highly exaggerated undulation; but the sequence of my undulation seems to be finally on the right course. I've got a lot of smoothing and flattening out to do and it seems like I need work re-integrating my arm-stroke. In reading earlier threads here, I found someone had posted a couple video frames of Phelps' stroke positions. I actually took the same source video file and extracted a few frames myself at the precise points of my interest (see attached jpeg). I am imprinting these positions into my mind and I intend to focus on executing these stroke points as shown. I looked at video of several other top swimmers (Ian Crocker and others including female) and I could find the same points of interest in their strokes. Phelps' head and trunk goes deeper below his arms than most others (but not all) and Phelps is one of few who breathe every stroke, but I think the stills of Phelps do the intended job. Comments, arguments, ridicule, or advice on anything is welcome.
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  • Former Member
    Former Member
    some_girl: "I've become rather obsessed with fly lately" Obviously you are my kind of girl! "One thing, though. You write, "There must be no pause in arm and hand motion once the water is entered." My coach is very big on emphasizing the glide, after your hands enter but before you begin the pull. Not for a sprint, obviously, but generally. It does make the stroke a bit less tiring, and for me, being able to have a good glide in any stroke makes me feel like I'm doing it right, like I'm getting good propulsion." It is so interesting you brought this up now. First: What I tried to do was be very specific in what I think is right (about everything) given that I came across contrary advice on several things and some really bad and poorly written advice, not to mention my own apparent misunderstanding of a few people's advice. I'm not sure I came across anyone (other than in a discussion - and now Matt/TI) who suggested "gliding" but I may have; I did come across an article that said that any pause (we are all talking about the same point in the stroke) hurt times based on a (probably informal) analysis. So I "settled this" with my own analysis which may well be wrong. I made my final conclusions based on what I see in video and how "gliding" works for me (if I do it). I haven't noticed anyone gliding in a video, maybe it's hard to see. I have "glided" somewhat when attempting slower-motion butterfly, but I consider that just a drill since my undulation is scaled down when I go slow. At regular speed, for one thing, it seems that your undulation is more dependent on synchronized arm with body motion. If you were to stop moving your arms and hands (and glide) during outsweep what is the rest of your body doing? Look at Phelps in outsweep, above in frame 3. His arms are above his head, his butt is up, and his legs are down. He's not close to a reasonable "glide" position. Can you give me a description of what your arms, head, torso, and legs are doing while you are gliding? I assume you would be gliding on every stroke so that you have a rythym by which your body "resumes" its undulation in a manner to remain in sync with your armstroke? (But Matt says no - every other stroke.) Now for the reason why I said it was so interesting you brought this up. Last week I started working intensely on my undulation during the pull and push. I knew this was going to be my breakthrough and that is why I drew up those pics last week. My long workout/swim on Monday this week exceeded my fly expectations tenfold. I finally have a butterfly stroke, albeit a bad one. Anyway, my significant problem at the moment is in the "outsweep to pull". For outsweep, I'm coming head-shoulders down under my arms (Phelps frame 3 again) but not as far as Phelps I hope. Coming down more than I had before is giving me a pause during outsweep sometimes which is playing havoc with my timing. My arms get behind and out of sync. Actually, I've had this problem ever since I started really working the undulation. I've smoothed things out now so I can overcome it much of the time but not always. I feel like I am in an awkward position for my arms. I was doing the fly my best ever by far on Monday but by the end of a long workout, my arms got very tired going between the outsweep and pull and the delay killed my syncronization. I don't know if I forgot how to pull or if my chest is too far below my arms or what. If anyone has any ideas to offer, please do. Maybe I need to consider changing my pull style to come in towards the chest early instead of more to the sides, assuming that could make it any easier. some_girl: "for keeping the head low (which I am very bad at, both in fly & ***), I'm a big fan of breathing to the side. I know a lot of people don't like it, but I think it's worth trying. Also, doing so makes it easier to keep an eye on the person you're racing." I will try this next time out, hopefully at the end of the week. I became aware of this technique from a video file a few months ago and I have been curious ever since. Almost every lap (or two) I do of fly I have a plan on one thing to work on before I start. This has yielded some ugly fly but it's the way I drill. Twenty times, I started to swim with the intention of thinking about my breathing but I almost always reverted to working on something else. For a long time I suspected that my exhalation was not good. When I was conscious of my exhalation (which I found suprisingly hard to be conscious of), I didn't like it because it seemed strained. Eventually, (I gave up "trying" and) I decided that breathing was probably not my problem. I breathe in ok in breastroke and it doesn't matter whether I go high or low. My actual breastroke style is a very low breathing position. But I breathe out different in breastroke than I can for freestyle. For freestyle, I blow out harder the moment before I surface and this is what I want to do for butterfly if I can. For butterfly, I get ample breathing height (and I think my head position is ok - half down - if not, I'm almost sure I can fix it), but I wonder if there is any chance I can improve my exhalation by turning my head and tricking my lungs into acting like freestyle breathing. I wonder if someone is going to tell me that my idea makes no sense. Thanks for asking and I will fill you in with my first impressions of sideways breathing. I may only do it for two or three laps the next time out (at the end of the week). I'm in a big learning period right now and I'm loving it.
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  • Former Member
    Former Member
    some_girl: "I've become rather obsessed with fly lately" Obviously you are my kind of girl! "One thing, though. You write, "There must be no pause in arm and hand motion once the water is entered." My coach is very big on emphasizing the glide, after your hands enter but before you begin the pull. Not for a sprint, obviously, but generally. It does make the stroke a bit less tiring, and for me, being able to have a good glide in any stroke makes me feel like I'm doing it right, like I'm getting good propulsion." It is so interesting you brought this up now. First: What I tried to do was be very specific in what I think is right (about everything) given that I came across contrary advice on several things and some really bad and poorly written advice, not to mention my own apparent misunderstanding of a few people's advice. I'm not sure I came across anyone (other than in a discussion - and now Matt/TI) who suggested "gliding" but I may have; I did come across an article that said that any pause (we are all talking about the same point in the stroke) hurt times based on a (probably informal) analysis. So I "settled this" with my own analysis which may well be wrong. I made my final conclusions based on what I see in video and how "gliding" works for me (if I do it). I haven't noticed anyone gliding in a video, maybe it's hard to see. I have "glided" somewhat when attempting slower-motion butterfly, but I consider that just a drill since my undulation is scaled down when I go slow. At regular speed, for one thing, it seems that your undulation is more dependent on synchronized arm with body motion. If you were to stop moving your arms and hands (and glide) during outsweep what is the rest of your body doing? Look at Phelps in outsweep, above in frame 3. His arms are above his head, his butt is up, and his legs are down. He's not close to a reasonable "glide" position. Can you give me a description of what your arms, head, torso, and legs are doing while you are gliding? I assume you would be gliding on every stroke so that you have a rythym by which your body "resumes" its undulation in a manner to remain in sync with your armstroke? (But Matt says no - every other stroke.) Now for the reason why I said it was so interesting you brought this up. Last week I started working intensely on my undulation during the pull and push. I knew this was going to be my breakthrough and that is why I drew up those pics last week. My long workout/swim on Monday this week exceeded my fly expectations tenfold. I finally have a butterfly stroke, albeit a bad one. Anyway, my significant problem at the moment is in the "outsweep to pull". For outsweep, I'm coming head-shoulders down under my arms (Phelps frame 3 again) but not as far as Phelps I hope. Coming down more than I had before is giving me a pause during outsweep sometimes which is playing havoc with my timing. My arms get behind and out of sync. Actually, I've had this problem ever since I started really working the undulation. I've smoothed things out now so I can overcome it much of the time but not always. I feel like I am in an awkward position for my arms. I was doing the fly my best ever by far on Monday but by the end of a long workout, my arms got very tired going between the outsweep and pull and the delay killed my syncronization. I don't know if I forgot how to pull or if my chest is too far below my arms or what. If anyone has any ideas to offer, please do. Maybe I need to consider changing my pull style to come in towards the chest early instead of more to the sides, assuming that could make it any easier. some_girl: "for keeping the head low (which I am very bad at, both in fly & ***), I'm a big fan of breathing to the side. I know a lot of people don't like it, but I think it's worth trying. Also, doing so makes it easier to keep an eye on the person you're racing." I will try this next time out, hopefully at the end of the week. I became aware of this technique from a video file a few months ago and I have been curious ever since. Almost every lap (or two) I do of fly I have a plan on one thing to work on before I start. This has yielded some ugly fly but it's the way I drill. Twenty times, I started to swim with the intention of thinking about my breathing but I almost always reverted to working on something else. For a long time I suspected that my exhalation was not good. When I was conscious of my exhalation (which I found suprisingly hard to be conscious of), I didn't like it because it seemed strained. Eventually, (I gave up "trying" and) I decided that breathing was probably not my problem. I breathe in ok in breastroke and it doesn't matter whether I go high or low. My actual breastroke style is a very low breathing position. But I breathe out different in breastroke than I can for freestyle. For freestyle, I blow out harder the moment before I surface and this is what I want to do for butterfly if I can. For butterfly, I get ample breathing height (and I think my head position is ok - half down - if not, I'm almost sure I can fix it), but I wonder if there is any chance I can improve my exhalation by turning my head and tricking my lungs into acting like freestyle breathing. I wonder if someone is going to tell me that my idea makes no sense. Thanks for asking and I will fill you in with my first impressions of sideways breathing. I may only do it for two or three laps the next time out (at the end of the week). I'm in a big learning period right now and I'm loving it.
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