There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Former Member
Originally posted by geochuck
They needed help yesterday.
So why would they wish that they had imports?
I've probably quoted this exact rule in this thread before, but maybe it's worth repeating. From the NCAA Div I rule book:
14.2.3.2 Tennis and Swimming and Diving. Subsequent to the high-school graduation date of the student-athlete’s class (as determined by the first year of high-school enrollment or the international equivalent as specified in the NCAA Guide to International Academic Standards for Athletics Eligibility), a student-athlete shall have one year in order to be immediately eligible and retain the opportunity for four seasons of competition upon initial, full-time collegiate enrollment. Graduation from high school or secondary school shall be based on the student-athlete’s prescribed educational path in his or her country. The student also must meet all applicable NCAA, institutional and conference eligibility requirements. A student who does not enroll in a collegiate institution as a full-time student during that one-year time period shall be subject to the following:
(Adopted: 1/9/96 effective 8/1/97 for those student-athletes first entering a collegiate institution on or after 8/1/97; Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04)
(a) The student-athlete shall be charged with a season of intercollegiate tennis or swimming and diving eligibility for each calendar year subsequent to the one-year time period (i.e., the next opportunity to enroll after one calendar year has elapsed) and prior to full-time collegiate enrollment during which the student-athlete has participated in organized tennis or swimming and diving events per Bylaw 14.2.3.5.3. (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04)
(b) Subsequent to the one-year time period, if the student-athlete has engaged in organized tennis or swimming and diving events per Bylaw 14.2.3.5.3, upon matriculation at the certifying institution, the student-athlete must fulfill an academic year in residence before being eligible to represent the institution in intercollegiate tennis or swimming and diving competition. (Revised: 4/29/04 effective 8/1/04 for competition occurring on or after 8/1/04)
These restrictions make it pretty difficult for these foreign athletes to be "two or three years older," or, at least if they are, they aren't getting four years of eligibility.
The thing that always got me is it seems like there's a perception that schools are going out and recruiting these Ivan Dragos from other countries when in fact they're just going out and recruiting kids who are just like the kids they recruit from the U.S. Last I checked the U.S. was still the dominant country in swimming, but coaches know there are plenty of talented kids in other countries who can help their team win and probably contribute just as postively to the team atmosphere as all the domestic swimmers do.
Since the Geek has been far to tame in recent postings....In hono of college season kicking in I thought I would dredge this old thread up with some updated info:
The NCAA Initial-Eligibility Clearinghouse provides us with a certification process whereby the academic records of all domestic and international prospects interested in attending either an NCAA Division I or Division II institution are reviewed to determine the academic status of each prospect.
Beginning November 20, 2006, the responsibilities of the clearinghouse will expand to include the process of reviewing the amateur status of all prospects (high school/secondary school and junior college transfers) planning to enroll for the first time at an NCAA Division I or II institution fall 2007 and thereafter.
In order for a prospect to receive financial aid and/or participate at a Division I or II institution, the prospect must complete the amateurism registration process and be certified as an amateur by the clearinghouse.
Prospects will register online using the same Web site that currently is used for the NCAA Initial-Eligibility Clearinghouse
( www.ncaaclearinghouse.net ).
Online registration is required. No hard copies of the registration form are available.
In addition to providing demographic and academic information, a prospect will be required to answer five questions about his/her athletics participation, prize money earned, expense money received and any contact they may have had with agents and/or professional teams. Depending on the responses to these questions, the prospect may be required to provide additional information.
Once a prospect answers the questions (and provides additional information if needed), this information will be reviewed and the prospect will receive a preliminary amateurism status report (certified, certified with conditions, not certified or pending). This preliminary status report will help Division I and II institutions determine if they wish to continue recruiting a prospect.
Starting April 7, 2007, all prospects enrolling in the fall 2007 that have registered and received a preliminary report will need to return to the clearinghouse Web site to update their registration form and confirm the accuracy of the information provided. After doing so, a prospect will receive final amateurism certification from the clearinghouse. Member institutions will be able to access this information via the clearinghouse Web site for the prospects listed on institutional request lists.
2007 Prospect Notification: Prospects who have registered prior to the opening of the amateurism component of the clearinghouse will be advised either by e-mail or United States mail to return to the clearinghouse Web site after the opening to complete the amateurism portion of the initial-eligibility registration process. Any assistance institutions can provide in contacting and encouraging prospects to complete the registration process will be appreciated.
Gull:
So Aquageek is worse than evil John Smith? I have a lot to learn. Aquageek, was it you who said that I could never swim "properly" without fins? If so, I forgive you. I have a thick skin under my fastskin.
Leslie
Leslie
Gull:
So Aquageek is worse than evil John Smith? I have a lot to learn. Aquageek, was it you who said that I could never swim "properly" without fins? If so, I forgive you. I have a thick skin under my fastskin.
All you really need to know about this forum is that gull80 believes in TI above all other swimming techniques and the Smiths have egos larger than Texas. Oh, and I'm always right, don't forget that.
Aquageek:
This sounds like the pot calling the kettle black ("the Smiths have egos larger than Texas). Were you the evil villain, no doubt with healthy shoulders, that told me I could never swim "properly if I used fins in practice" I think it was you! At the risk of sparking too much controvery, what's wrong with TI (apart from its possible non-application to caffeine laden sprints by weight lifters)? Wait a minute, I hope I'm not high-jacking another thread. People will think I'm evil too.
Leslie- you must terminate your exposure to the contagion known to us as the Geek, lest you be confined to a level 4 biohazard containment facility to control the outbreak of facile and irresponsible noodlings on the inernet.
Totally agree with Aquageek on this particular issue. My country, China, used to restrict people from moving around the country freely or across different provisions or cities and rural areas(actually it is still more or less the case nowadays). As a result, the general living conditions of the whole population was very low then. Why? because the majority of the population cannot make full use of their talents to benefit the country and the people as well as themselves. Just imagine, what universities you can go, what place you can work, what social benefits and health care you can get, were determined by what place or families you were born into despite the fact that you were talented, you were working extremely hard, all of which could easily become nothing compared to the odds that your birthplace was.
But with the economic reform as well as other reforms since 1979, Chinese people, to some extend, can move around the country freely, can make their own choice freely, can compete against the so called locals in every aspects. the result is obvious. the general living condition has been significantly improved. Of course some previleges that used to be only enjoyed by city people are now gone and spread to the rural areas. But to these city people, it is a fact that they are also better off in terms of general living condition.
To me, the same principle can be applied to the swim scholarship offered to internationl swimmers. On the one hand, Americans are denied even though they pay the tax. On the other hand, international swimmers get the scholarship. But I think the benefits would outweigh the loss in the long term. Because international swimmers bring new techniques, new minds, new training methods, which clashes with the American way and improve the swim standard in general. This, in my view, is the major return of recruiting international swimmers, just like the academic field.
For the tax payer issue, let's take another approach. Let's look ahead 10 years, 20 years, or more. Your son or your friend cannot get the scholarship. But it is possible that your grandson could do it. It is also possible that your grandson's outstanding performance might benefit largely or decisively from international swimmers. If we push it to extreme, that, your grandson might become champion only under an overseas training system that does not exist in America. Which one should you choose? the one that offer the scholarship based on nationality, in which case your grandson might never have the chance to become a swimmer because the training system that suits him is denied by America just because of the nationality issue. or another one that offer scholarship based on performance. Your grandson can be trained and attain a higher level.
To me, the tax paid today will return someday in the future. It is this kind of accumulation of generations that make our world better and better. It might not reward you or your son. But it will reward your grandson.
Please forgive me if there is any inapproporiate words. English is my second language. And I live in Beijing, rarely having the chance to practise it.
Finally thanks this forum. I learn a lot of techniques.
Good day!
It's both economically and physically impossible to close the border. Communist Europe and China tried it and look at them now, moving to the free market economy. There are really about a handful of nations these days that still hang onto the belief that closed borders benefit the economy, Cuba and N. Korea are two notable examples, and fine examples they are. So, move on from that notion. And, I seriously doubt many of the illegal aliens you are so concerned about bankrupting our southern border states are taking up swimming scholarships.
