There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
Former Member
Alright, I have sat back and read this from beginning to end now. You guys and girls continue to amaze me. It is like listening to the primaries all over again. The diversity of this country is EXACTLY what made this country great! I will never argue against that, heck look at my last name. What I will argue, is exactly what Tom has stated from the beginning. It used to be an honor not a right to become a US citizen. Some immigrants will tell you that the day they EARNED their citizenship was the greatest day of their life. With that said, I agree with Tom...let anybody and everybody that wants to come to this country come.....LEGALLY! That would include athletes who want to train at our colleges! If you want to accept a scholarship you need to be a citizen. Harsh? Narrow minded? Guilty! Guilty! And Guilty again! If you dont' want to become a citizen, you are still more then welcome to come and train....but you need to be funded by the Olympic Team from the country that you will swim for at the end of the day!
This is of course...My Own Humble Opinion!
Originally posted by gull80
Just so I understand this--state universities have an obligation to the residents of that state, except when it comes to athletics, because fielding a winning team trumps all else?
No, the argument is that it is valid to balance the goal of team building (by adding top level athletes regardless of citizenship) with the desire to support local athletes of lessor ability by giving some of the available scholarships to foreign students. There are too many goals behind awarding athletic scholarships to try and draw simple black and white conclusions, in most cases there will be a balance of competing goals. The converse argument is that who paid what taxes trumps all else.
If you look at it from another perspective...a foreign country... I can reap the benefits of some of the best training in the world for my Olympic Team...paid for by the team I'm trying to beat. WOW, think about that!
"The main reason international swimmers like going to US colleges is not the free education "
Well good, then don't take the money and leave it for USA Swimmers!
Originally posted by tjburk
Alright, I have sat back and read this from beginning to end now. You guys and girls continue to amaze me. It is like listening to the primaries all over again. The diversity of this country is EXACTLY what made this country great! I will never argue against that, heck look at my last name. What I will argue, is exactly what Tom has stated from the beginning. It used to be an honor not a right to become a US citizen. Some immigrants will tell you that the day they EARNED their citizenship was the greatest day of their life. With that said, I agree with Tom...let anybody and everybody that wants to come to this country come.....LEGALLY! That would include athletes who want to train at our colleges! If you want to accept a scholarship you need to be a citizen. Harsh? Narrow minded? Guilty! Guilty! And Guilty again! If you dont' want to become a citizen, you are still more then welcome to come and train....but you need to be funded by the Olympic Team from the country that you will swim for at the end of the day!
This is of course...My Own Humble Opinion!
But it is extremely hard to get a citizenship now. Just look at the woman who is an ice dancer from Canada. She has been trying for about 10 yrs. Also, if you come on a student visa, you are almost garaunteed not to be allowed to get your citizenship before your visa expires. So you'll have to go back to your country & tell them you want a visa to come to the US so you can become a US citizen. But that's not an offical reason to grant a visa. It is extremely difficult to gety a student visa in the first place from many countries becaseu they are afraid you won't come back!!!!!!!!!
Originally posted by tjburk
If you look at it from another perspective...a foreign country... I can reap the benefits of some of the best training in the world for my Olympic Team...paid for by the team I'm trying to beat. WOW, think about that!
Unless USOC is paying for the scholarships your logic seems a bit off.
On a slightly more interesting note, Swimming Canada seems to have a problem with our athletes leaving the country to train, the theory being that having your best swimmers scattered around the world has a negative impact on the system at home, i.e. if our best swimmers aren't swimming in our programs the other swimmers in our programs aren't benefiting from swimming with our best.
Our best 1500m swimmer went to Australia to train with Hackett instead of staying here where he had no real competition. He made our qualifying time at the Australian trials swimming against Hackett, but missed them at our own trials where he had to race purely against the clock, so he didn't get to go to the Olympics. Now he'll be at the Worlds in Montreal competing for Australia. Oops, I've gone off topic.
Lindsay, how is that logic off? Except for the occasional phenomena like Phelps, I would venture to guess that about 99% of our Olympic swimmers either currently swim college or did at some time. I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.
The problem with your logic is that a college swimming program is not one and the same as the olympic team. Is a college coach obligated to put the interests of the Olympic team above the interests of his particular college program? Some people here seem to think so but others do not.
If USOC was paying to have foreign swimmers attend the US Olympic training camps I think your original statement would have greater logical validity.
OK, I tried gently suggesting. Didn't register, so let me rephrase my remarks with the sharp edges exposed.
I am amazed at the hypocritical sense of entitlement in some people. The people who feel they've been gypped out of a swimming scholarship have been the fastest swimmers on their team for most of their careers. (Memo to swimmers who are not the fastest kids on their club or high school team: you have no shot at a swimming scholarship, with or without foreign swimmers. There are more roster positions in major league baseball or the NFL than there are Div I swimming scholarships. We could take away every single scholarship from a non-U.S. citizen, and you would still not get one. Please stop kidding everyone.) They have benefitted from being the fastest kid on the team during most of their careers. Coaches cater to their swimming goals (if not downright kiss their backsides) and give them more attention. The whole swimming system is about draping gold medals around their necks and sticking trophies in their hands, and generally telling them what terrific people they are because they swim faster than everyone else.
OK, fair enough, that is what competitive sports are all about. But now finally, as they wait for Div I colleges to bestow upon them further benefits not available to everyone else, they suddenly encounter something new. There is someone else faster than them, and darn it, I want an exception to the rule the fastest swimmer wins to take care of ME. The rest of us who qualify as prelims cannon fodder would call this experience REALITY! Get used to it. Everyone, even world record holders, eventually lose to someone else. Even if they retire at the top, eventually some dude from California, or Queensland breaks their old record.
Let's explore the idea that the people who allegedly pay the bills deserve special consideration for athletic scholarships. Let's talk about Indiana, a public University that receives substantial funding from the tax payers of Indiana. Was it inappropriate for Doc Counsilman to offer Mark Spitz, a Californian whose parents paid taxes to California not Indiana, a scholarship rather than the fastest Indianan he could find? Please note, the case for reserving athletic scholarships at publically funded universities to State residents is STRONGER than what we have been discussing here. In that case you can trace funding directly to a State's taxpayers. This is a much more direct than the link U.S. citizens have to the funding for all Div I universities, public or private.
Bottom line: you have lived in a system that gives you special benefits for being the fastest swimmer, without regard for "other factors." Don't try to change the rules the first time you don't like fastest swimmer wins.
Matt
Does this delineate the two arguments?
One group believes that resources are scarce, and therefore giving them to non-Americans is unjust.
Another group believes that resources are scarce, but values what foreigners contribute to the educational experience and thereby believes that giving resources to non-Americans improves the academic/athletic climate for everyone.
IT seems to me that both arguments have validity. It seems to me that having a different opinion is a great example OF Americanism. Is it a coincidence that the same people who make accusations of anti-Americanism (IE they do not value others beliefs) are the same people who do not see the value of foreigners to Americans.
