Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

Oh, and Connie, I have always respected your posts.....Having said that...this one is way out of line and lacks class.... "and now, whadda ya know, I pay enough in taxes to cover your entire salary! "

Originally posted by gull80 I trained in Houston and spent quite a bit of time at Ben Taub, the county hospital. What I saw were dedicated physicians working long hours to deliver quality care to indigent patients. Ben Taub is a Level I trauma center and is considered the place to go if you're shot, stabbed or in a motor vehicle accident (the private hospitals aren't nearly as well-equipped to handle those problems). Sorry if that doesn't fit your view of the American healthcare system. Once wwhen I was visiting my siblings in Houston, my oldest brother is an ER nurse at Texas Children's, I had a terrible asthma attack. I went to the first ER I could find. It was at Hermann. The next day the same thing happened. I went back to Hermann. the woman at the front desk told me that people like me shoudl go to Ben Taub. I wenmt there three days later & got better service. then i went to my sister's in Pearland. I went to the nearby brach of Memorial. teh bill from memorial was at least three times more expensive than any ER hospital bill I had ever gotten. Whe i licved in St. Louis, my job was very close to the County Hospital. Twice Ihad an attack at work. I got the same type ofservice that I got at Jewish near my appartment.

OK, now even I have to question whether we want this thread to travel down the path related to unauthorized immigration, the economic realities of that process, the number of jobs that create the incentives for such actions, the merits of guest worker programs and the value of providing educational and health benefits to residents and their children as opposed to leaving them illiterate and diseased. But this is a far astray from the issue of athletic scholarships and diversity on college campuses . . . so let's not go there . . . just a suggestion . . . but I will certainly yield to the majority and dive right in if people want to travel this path carl

"OK, now even I have to question whether we want this thread to travel down the path related to unauthorized immigration, the economic realities of that process, the number of jobs that create the incentives for such actions, the merits of guest worker programs and the value of providing educational and health benefits to residents and their children as opposed to leaving them illiterate and diseased." Naa, I guess we should not travel down the path related to discussing illegal immigrants.....The fact is, they should not be here in the first place and if they were NOT here....we would not have anything talk about, educate or provide health benefits to.... Does the word Moot....come to mind?

OK, although I posted my opinion and believe what I said, I am sorry that I went so far off the original topic....... Sometimes my mind wanders! On topic...I stated earlier in the thread that I do not have a problem with swimmers (or athletes in general) from other countries coming to the US - for scholarships or a paycheck - as long as it is done legally. It is a selfish thing. When I attend or watch a sports event, I want to see the best. Originally posted by Scansy Oh boy, I can't believe I'm getting involved in this..... Maybe its the rampant conservative in me, but I believe that people need to help themselves. If someone is working a minimum wage job..... look for another job. If you don't like your standard of living..... do something about it. And I don't mean whine to the government that you need a handout. I believe that the worst thing that has happened to this country was the creation of the entitlement attitude... mostly as a result of government programs.... and compounded day in and day out by the lawsuit happy court system, continued handouts and probably other influences that I am not aware of. Everyone thinks they are entitled to a handout. What I think is that people are entitled to one thing... opportunity. And opportunity does existing in this country. Period. I grew up in a house where hard work happened all the time. Unfortunately, many children grow up in a house where the only form of income is the government. These children grow up learning that the way to survive is to have your hand out. It's an evil cycle that gets those family's nowhere over time. But somehow I think many of our government leaders like it that way. If you have a large group of people that is beholden to you - needs you to keep giving them money - you have a steady stream of votes as long as you keep their cash flow going. OK Libs.... blast away!

Originally posted by ande uh mary a duel is where a man would fight another man to win or defend your honor. dual might be the spelling you intented to go with now there have been duels in pools too maybe we could do italians vs amercians ;-) ande oooooops! that was a good one! a Freudian slip, obviously!! An Italian vs American dual masters meet? You all would beat us right out of the water... and then we'd cook you up some yummy pasta, give you some wine, and there would be peace in the world of masters swimming... ;)

Originally posted by justforfun 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally? It' s not just aboutthe swimmers, it;s about the coaches and their careers, and it;s about the athletic programs who have a better chance of surviving witg more quality swimmers, even if they came from abroad. In most cases, these swimmers represent their schools in almost all competitions, withthe exception of certain international events... But even then, it is usually well known where they've gotten the training that took them to the top...So that benefits the coaches and the schools. And eventually, a *few* of those foreign athletes will end up getting the US citizenship, and end uo representing the US. I think it's important for the coaches to work with the top talent, regardless of what country that talent came from. That will only benefit our own talent. As for Duje Draganja... Well, he came from my old country, and is swimming in my new country (US), so I'm especially biased in his case ;)

I suppose we've beaten the topic to death since we've moved on to other things...but, I've been wanting to relate this story from my home state to those who are unfamiliar. The U. of Nebraska mens' swimming team used to be pretty good. They regularly won conference titles in the old Big 8 and had some top 10 NCAA finishes. The men's program was terminated a number of years ago, which is a story in and of itself. Nebraska's success was largely a product of it's international swimmers, including athletes from South Africa, Australia, Canada and Europe. In the late 1980's and into the 1990's, some of these foreign athletes had a lot of success in international competition. One was a South African named Peter Williams, who briefly held the 50 LCM free record (much to the chagrin of Biondi and Jager, because he set the record in a time trial). Another swimmer was South African Penny Heynes. She was better known because she held both breaststroke world records and was a double Olympic gold winner in 1996. You might think that being a native Nebraskan and life long fan of all Nebraska sports (even though I didn't attend Nebraska), I would be proud of these accomplishments. Certainly the University promoted those swimmers. But, I never felt good about it, and even felt embarrassed, because I knew the training, coaching, and financial support provided by the University lead directly to these swimmers' success at the expense of U.S. swimmers who finished below them at international competitions. Furthermore, the scholarships they received didn't go to promising local swimmers, people I had competed with and against in high school. I never felt any animosity towards the individual swimmers who were on scholarship. They were certainly nice people and I got along fine with them--they were only taking advantage of an opportunity offered to them. I can tell you that people who supported the team in various ways, financially, as volunteers, etc. were not happy that so many scholarships went to non-U.S. swimmers. Certainly the international student-athletes at Nebraska were given opportunities they might not have had otherwise. But, shouldn't those opportunities go preferentially to U.S. swimmers? None of the many foreign swimmers who came to Nebraska ever became U.S. citizens and competed for the United States.

Originally posted by Tom Ellison Bill of Rights ? Oh heck yes....let's make that apply to EVERY PERSON ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH....heck, I stand corrected....let's open the borders and let anyone come here....also, while we are at it....let us send all our jobs offshore to help other countries, lets give free aid to everyone and still have millions go hungry here in the USA....let's give what LITTLE scholarship money we have to anyone... from any place....The heck with taking care of USA Swimmers....give the entire store away....Americans do not need rights, jobs, scholarships or rewards for years of hard work in this country…. Looking sternly at Tom, tapping her foot... Ya know, I'm not from 'round here originally.... gotta problem with that? Sounds like if it was up to you, I;d never make it over here... and now, whadda ya know, I pay enough in taxes to cover your entire salary! Not exactly talking aboit people on public assistance. :P Don't make me get mad at you and hafta kick yer bum!!!

Justforfun...I rest my case after your last post....You made my point very well.....and I do not feel any animosity towards the foreign swimmers on scholarships in the USA...I just wish they would have been granted to USA Swimmers..... Heck, ONE OF THE GREATEST USMS SWIMMERS of ALL TIME....and a FINE MAN and friend....Graham Johnston had a scholarship at Oklahoma in the early 50's...and went on to swim the mile in the 52 Olympic Games for S. Africa....A few years later he became a U.S. Citizen....But, had I or my kids been around then....I would have wanted US Swimmers to have this fine man and great swimmers scholarship.....Heck, I am openly for Americans first!