There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries.
A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally?
I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.
uh mary
a duel is where a man would fight another man to win or defend your honor.
dual might be the spelling you intented to go with
now there have been duels in pools too
maybe we could do italians vs amercians
;-)
ande
Originally posted by Maryyyyyy
PS: Given that I have duel Italian / USA citizenship I CAN slip through your nation's borders and WILL be attending the World Championships. I will swim for the Italian team, and will be wearing an Italian swim cap in appreciation of the kind masters spirit they have shown me during my 22 years in this country. I have regularly paid my team dues, and have received no scholarships in any country on this planet...
Originally posted by Matt S
("Comrades of high school boys swimming, we must unite against the common enemy!"
"Girls, cars and hanging out with friends!")
Matt
so true, as my son's swimming is a casualty of the above. He at least is working around a pool as a life guard now!
Does anyone have any idea who Bud is and what his previous contribution, if any, to this discussion thread might have been? I've scanned about half the 15 pages hanging off of this thread, and I haven't spotted him once.
Matt
Here we go again -- let me start by saying that I am a foreign swimmer that came to the US on a swimming scholarship.
All the so-called arguments about foreign swimmers taking scholarships away and so on are really off-base and very narrowminded.
A couple of things right away:
- any swimmer who has any shot whatsoever of ever representing the US in the Olympics or other international competition will always be able to get a scholarship. In swimming, you know by age 17 or 18 if that person even has the slightest shot of something like that - so that part of the entire argument is just wrong. There are about 40 or so solid division 1 programs, that mean even for the men on average there should be about 100 scholarships each year - if you are not among the top 100 high-schoolswimmers in the nation, let me be the first one to break the news -- you will not make the Olympics.
- the scholarship is a trade: nothing more and nothing less. I will get the education and you will get my ability to swim. I am obligating myself to train 10x per week for 2 1/2 hours in the water, 4 x per week on land , I will be at Christmas training on December 26 at 6:00 AM -- and the university gets my ability to compete in the sport of swimming.
- American swimmers get beat by foreign swimmers training in the US: What are you really crying about ? The US dominates the medal count in swimming. If anything the American swimmers gain from being able to train with the BEST SWIMMERS in the world. Do you think the American sprinters at Auburn suffer from training with Freedie Bousquet ?? Do think the backstrokers at Stanford had a setback when Rogan trained with them ??
- The main reason international swimmers like going to US colleges is not the free education -- schools are basically for free in most European countries. The reason is the ability to combine school and swimming (or trackand field, waterpolo, ....) . Universities in Europe don't really give a "you know what" about sports - they could not care less. You do not hear other countries complaining that the US colleges have (by accident) created a semi-pro system for many Olympic sports.
hear hear for ehoch!
He says what I tried, but failed, to say.
My only quibble? While "people in other countries" may not complain about the semi-pro athletic systems embedded in our educational system, I do! (for what its worth)
Originally posted by aquageek
You want an example of gov't reform that actually didn't cost more, improved efficiencies and even the left crowd liked - WELFORM REFORM.
Since paying taxes is not voluntary, I'm not sure why you consider me selfish. Would the fact that folks contribute to other causes besides our gov't be ok with you or is it only acceptable to pay more taxes to prove your worth? What about people who tithe to their churches or volunteer their time? That acceptable?
Well, that isn't necessarily true about welfare reform. According to this study digest (the widest nonpartisan link I could find in the short time I have), welfare reform seemed to have good effects only when coupled with increased spending on programs designed to support working parents: childcare, etc. That is, it worked when you spent the money elsewhere, not when you refused to spend it. It is also hard to interpret welfare reform statistics because most studies I found were from 2001 or 2002, which means they were looking at reform in the context of economic expansion. Then again, if there were some innovative approach to healthcare that cost less money but was effective, I would coonsider it. I haven't seen any suggestions in that direction, though.
As for your other question, no I do not think private charity is a reasonable option. Private charity is never disinterested, and I especially don't think people should have to endure prostelyzation to get help. Even the most reprehensible people deserve help and compassion, and a disinterested government is the best way to make sure people are helped regardless of their personal charms.
Originally posted by justforfun
But, shouldn't those opportunities go preferentially to U.S. swimmers? None of the many foreign swimmers who came to Nebraska ever became U.S. citizens and competed for the United States.
This same theme has come up numerous times and I just don't get it. These foreign swimmers are coming to the U.S. to get a free (or at least cheap) education and train with and compete against some of the best swimmers in the world. I don't really understand why they are in any way obligated to become U.S. citizens or compete for the U.S. and I really don't understand why people think they would. That said, several of the foreign guys I swam with did stay in the U.S. after school and have jobs and familes here now. This may be a different tack than most of our ancestors took to reach the U.S., but the end result is the same, and in my opinion this is one of the things that makes the U.S. great.
I'm sure there are lots of examples, but let me name just one name of someone who came to this country to swim and has had a HUGE positive effect on swimming in the United States: Jon Urbanchek.
Originally posted by Tom Ellison
"There are hundreds of millions of dollars of scholarships that aren't used every year so these few swimmers aren't denying anyone an education. "
NOT IN MEN'S SWIMMING IN THIS COUNTRY....SHOW ME ONE DOLLAR IN NCAA MEN'S SWIMMING THAT IS NOT USED....and I WILL WEAR A MOOSE SUIT TO WORLDS....A PINK MOOSE SUIT AT THAT....!
It would be a pretty sad, lonely worlds if the USA were to decide to close its borders... hmmmmm less competition... the USA will win all the medals... now wouldn't THAT be nice? :rolleyes:
Dear Mr Moore,
Please note that the borders to the United States of America have been closed, and only USA citizens will be competing in the upcoming World Championships in Palo Alto 2006...
Signed,
Mary Lokken
Florence Italy
PS: Given that I have duel Italian / USA citizenship I CAN slip through your nation's borders and WILL be attending the World Championships. I will swim for the Italian team, and will be wearing an Italian swim cap in appreciation of the kind masters spirit they have shown me during my 22 years in this country. I have regularly paid my team dues, and have received no scholarships in any country on this planet...
Connie:
You immigrated to this country legally and became a productive citizen, and in doing so actions like that are what made our country great. I am not espousing that we close our borders to everyone. What I am saying, we need to close our borders to anyone who wants to come here illegally without US Immigration granting them permission to come here. Unless we do that the USA will become the welfare Country for every nation on earth and US Citizens will end up footing a bill we cannot afford. Hey, do not take my word for that, simply look at every single border county in Texas, AZ and California to see how STRETCHED to the limit their budgets are due to illegal immigrants taxing their health care and other social services.
I stand by my beliefs that ONLY US Citizens should be allowed scholarship money to swim. MOST, foreign swimmers come here to get an education on the United State’s nickel and then they end up competing for their home countries against the USA in world competition. I will NEVER be comfortable with that….ever…
