Foreign swimmers training in the U.S.

I remember one year when Little Rock-Arkansas stacked their water polo team with international players. If you could get enough of their players ejected (by picking up 3 majors), they would have to put in their sole US player (with no one else on the bench). Perfectly legal, but taken to that extreme, unsatisfying. (As in all things, moderation is best.)

Here are a few of my random thoughts: 1. International students improve the diversity of college communities and the greater the interaction between students of different cultural, socio-economic, religious, and so forth backgrounds the better the college experience. This in turn pays off in a benefit to society and (hopefully) improved cross cultural understanding. 2. Eliminate all athletic scholarships. Make all scholarships available based on academic potential and need, making the driving ambition providing access to a college education to someone who otherwise might not have that access . . . not on winning NCAA chanpionships. 3. As a corollary of the above, let all student athletes be just that, student athletes just like they are in Div III who play for love of the game. Aside from my above set forth pipe dreams, I see no harm in giving athletic scholarships to international students, if we're going to give them for sports, then give them to the best/fastest/strongest. As I said above, international students enhance the college community and the college experience for all by exposing students to different cultures. On the other hand, restricting scholarships based on national origin strikes me as a very negative value, smacking of xenophobia. And Title iX has done an awful lot of good, but that's another discussion. I guess that's more than my 2 cents . . . . carl

OK, personally I'm fine with foreign athletes training in the US. It happens and will continue to happen. We've got some great coaches and athletes are able to train with great peers. Look over lines on maps / nations and do whats best for mankind. I'd prefer US swimmers getting scholarships. Over the years Eddie Reese at UT has had few foreign swimmers and none to hardly any on scholarship. This hasn't been the case for many other schools. Several foreign swimmers won and scored well at last years div 1 ncaa's The other part of this worth mentioning are dual citizens, I've swum with several swimmers who were born in the US and lived in the US, but their parents were citizens of other countries, or dual citizens. These swimmers weren't fast enough to make the US olympic team, or didn't want risk trying to make the US Olympic team, but they could make another countries Olympic squad. like Mexico, Hungary, or other countries who's swim squads aren't as fast. That's fine with me too, my friends got to have an Olympic experience. One example is Zubero in the 200 M back in 1992, he swam for Spain at the barcelona olympics and won gold. Ande Originally posted by justforfun There has been a lot of discussion since Athens about foreign swimmers training in the United States. Most of them attend U.S. Universities, receive athletic scholarships, and compete at NCAA's. Some notable examples include Duje Draganja (Cal), Fred Bousquet and Kirsty Coventry (Auburn), Markus Rogan (Stanford), and the South African sprinters (Arizona). Some train in the U.S., but don't compete for a university (Inge de Bruijn). All of these athletes benefit from U.S. coaching, from training with U.S. swimmers, and in some cases, from financial support provided by U.S. entities (athletic scholarships). They all turn around and then win medals for other countries. A couple questions: 1) What do you think about this arrangement generally? 2) Is it of benefit or detriment to U.S. swimming to have these foreign athletes training and competing here? 3) Should we be giving athletic scholarships, which are a scarce resource in swimming, to foreign athletes who will represent their own countries internationally instead of U.S.-born swimmers who will represent us internationally? I'm sure there are other issues, but these come directly to mind.

I have to say that Tom and I don't agree on this one. I have no problem with this situation and am not aware of any situations where top calibre swimmers are denied scholarships or admission because of a foreign student. There are hundreds of millions of dollars of scholarships that aren't used every year so these few swimmers aren't denying anyone an education. We live in a global economy. In order to compete you bring in folks from around the world. A person we give a swimming scholarship to over a working lifetime will more likely return that gift a hundred fold to our country in various forms over their lifetime.

Stephanie, I don’t know of any elite US swimmers that went to Australian universities with swimming scholarships. Of whom are you speaking? I also couldn’t track down the financial aid section of the Bill of Rights. I must have an old copy. But back to the original questions. As the parent of a soon to be college freshman student/athlete (a swimmer of course), I would love to see more scholarship opportunities offered to US swimmers. But the reality of the situation is that coaches at top schools are under great pressures to produce championships and to place high at NCAA. One way to score at NCAA’s is to buy a couple of world class foreign swimmers, at the expense of partial scholarships to a bunch of real good domestic swimmers. I would love to see the NCAA cap the amount of athletic scholarships to foreign athletes to 10% of total scholarships. For me it is an issue of opportunity and reward, not of international competition. Over 95% of US scholarship swimmers will NEVER represent USA in international competition. But how many kids will choose to quit swimming in college, because there is no reward for all their hard work? How many kids (particularly boys) quit swimming because for most there is no future in swimming after high school (they don’t all know they can swim Masters). How many would stay in swimming if they were give even a partial scholarship in college? Is it important that the NCAA All-Americans all be Americans? No, but it would be nice to see at least 50% that can speak English. Selfish? Protective? Guilty!… Just don’t get us started on Title 9

Originally posted by Blue Horn America is built upon specific principles and beliefs and it has made this country great. Immigrants that have bought into these principles and beliefs have made this country great. Immigrants that seek to turn America into just another country indistinguishable from the rest of the world will be its downfall. My grandfather's (my mother's father) family came here from Poland and Russia. They came here because this is the greatest most compassionate country that has ever existed. Well put, Blue, although you wouldn't be able to tell America's compassion from this thread. It's funny, because I thought the United States was formed out of opression and intolerance. At least, that's the reason my grandparents emigrated from Ireland. Well, that, and lack of food. I feel badly for people from other countries trying to get "their piece of American pie" as it was put, because the people who founded this country fought, and gave up so much to get ahold of that pie, and now they get to sit back and watch us hoard it. So much for the American spirit. I say that international students have every right to the scholarships offered by the universities they attend, and if they are good enough to make the world stage and compete for their home countries, hooray for them. Except England. I don't like them. It's an Irish thing. :p And Dima, Geek, you guys are way out of line. There was so much argument about keeping on topic with the threads, and now you guys are turning this topic about international students and swimming scholarships into the next Cold War. Go fight on the Republicans' chat room.

Oh, on the issue of foriegn athletes, I think they should get the scholarships. It increases that variety and intellectual experiences of the students attending the university and expands the influence of the university further than it once would. We need to get rid if title 9. That would increase the number of scholarships for everyone, not just men. Hook'em Blue

"The scholarships should go to the fastest and most talented athletes regardless of their country of origin." And should USA based workers/people pay for that.....? If so WHY?

US Citizenship is much more than just paper work, and I take great offense to that statement. Unfortunately, many immigrants probably have similar feelings and is the reason for many of the problems in America. America is built upon specific principles and beliefs and it has made this country great. Immigrants that have bought into these principles and beliefs have made this country great. Immigrants that seek to turn America into just another country indistinguishable from the rest of the world will be its downfall. My grandfather's (my mother's father) family came here from Poland and Russia, but became proud Americans that readily assimilated into this country. They came here because this is the greatest most compassionate country that has ever existed. Does America have its problems? Of course it does, but I am sick and tired of America supporting the rest of the world while watching others attacking our country trying to bring us down instead of trying to climb up to our level. As far as the US needing brain power, that is laughable. If it wasn't for America all of these people you refer to would not have the opportunities before them. It is not as if they would create the resources that they have out of thin air and poof it would all go to the country of their origin. Sorry, it just doesn't work that way. Hook'em Blue

Whew...not sure I want to wade in on this one, but here goes. When I first read this thread I automatically thought about Division lll swimming. No scholarships, just school and swimming. Remember school? I thought that was what college was about. Not too many people out there who are making a living as a swimmer after college. Also, regarding the olympics, for me it's about the best swimmers not which country wins. I really dislike the emphasis put on which country won the most medals. Sure I am proud of Americans for doing well, but don't you like to see good swimming? Remember Michael Gross, Murray Rose, Inge De Bruin? Tell me you didn't enjoy their triumphs regardless of their home country. Glenn:)