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My new sport - track swimmer ... just like track cycling - they stay faster MUCH longer than us swimmers - WHY ???

Erik Hochstein

This is part of my Sprint Journey mission - I have looked into running to see how they train - but then also into a sport where you do not carry your own weight and see how they train and compete and how they compete at an older age - my conclusion -  almost all SWIMMERS train like road cyclists -- or open water swimmers - when we should all train like track cyclists if we compete in "track swimming" as in a pool !! My proof - and yes there are differences in what you need to stay "fast" for swimming vs cycling but the times these folks post are mind numbing for us swimmers !!

Sprint record - 10sec event  65y old is 1.2s slower than 30-50 year olds which btw all have same record - a 50y old is same speed as a 30y old !!!

500m time trial - similar to 75 Free - they lower the distance as people age which I am sure people think is st....d  - but 40y old record is 32,9 vs 60 year is 33.9 --- only 1 second slower !!!

1hr time trial - big event - no difference between age 30 and 50 !!!

Link to records NOT a trick or spam link :) 

https://assets.ctfassets.net/761l7gh5x5an/1oje3ZC4hM2yxZAPSC7iSC/76c9154f86a0abd7c190d7cd51aa63a5/20230202_Masters_Best_Performances_Men.pdf

Another obvious thing - almost all them records are set within last 5 years for cycling .... I think I know the main reason but lets see what others think too ...

  • Drag is enormously more of a factor in swimming. Cyclists let off the power and speed drops quite slowly. Swimmers let off the power and come to a dead stop in a meter or two.

  • Maybe it’s just me, but I find your post confusing and difficult to understand. I’m not quite sure what you’re getting at. It appears that you’re pointing out that if you train to go short and fast (i.e. sprint)…you’ll be a better sprinter (and presumably have less endurance). If you train to go long and slow…you’ll have more endurance, and be faster at long events. That’s not recent news. — Dan

  • in reply to Karl_S

    1-2m ?? maybe 10-12 .... but very true - different sport in many ways - the wall btw also very different - we get "free" top speed every 25y or meters -- but drag is different - good point

  • in reply to ForceDJ

    Well - totally my view and opinion -- but my point is that ALL swimmers ONLY train endurance in some form - SPEED is vastly undervalued and never properly trained.... , and has not been trained in the correct way EVER. And not using speed makes us slower - and not using strength and power to a max makes us all age "faster" - we need to maintain our maximum abilities for as long as possible and the traditional way of swim training is like training for different types of marathons -- I trained for Ultra - Ultramarathons in college swimming at USC - and now Masters training is just marathon training ... it slows us down way too much ...and I am out to prove my point :) ... we shall see 

  • OK, I think I may understand a little better. But…what if you don’t want to be fast/sprinter? And, and you want to be a long distance endurance swimmer? There’s a mantra “train” like you race. I certainly understand that slow swimming results in being a slow swimmer. After decades of doing open water swimming in the summers, a some pool speed work…training for triathlon, and a few other open water events up to 2-mile swims. I decided to train for a local 7-mile marathon ocean swim in the summer of 2020. I began that in the autumn of 2019. I gave up speed work and focused only on increasing my endurance. Actually, I did that event two years in a row. So it was a long time not doing speed drills. When I finally did go back to speed work…I found I had experienced a significant loss of speed (but I still had no problem going long). So back to my original question — what if you want to be long and slow?
    Dan
  • in reply to ForceDJ

    Nice - great to have goals and to train for something - I was "out" of it for way too long - part of what learned very much coming back - you don't use you lose it ... we all know it - we can all tell it to others but feeling it yourself - ouch !!  Part of my reason and motivation to swim again and swim for a long long time in terms of age is longevity - and no matter who you believe out there - you live longer with having good endurance AND good real strength -- if you don't use it you lose it ... yes we all lose some as we age but not doing anything makes you lose it 10x faster (not sure real number) ... anyways long story -- but also for you - I would argue and bet that losing the speed also impacted your endurance abilities quite a bit in a negative way - if you just do 1 real sprint workout every other week - you will swim faster in your next super long distance event.  Got my first real meet tomorrow - we shall see how close I get Slight smile

  • in reply to Erik Hochstein

    Your streamline is better than mine. I am pretty sure if I just stopped in the middle of a length swimming freestyle I would effectively stop in just a few meters. If I push off the wall in the best streamline I can, I might make 8 m, maybe.

  • in reply to Erik Hochstein

    I totally agree with your philosophy, but you overstate “everyone”. With HIIT and USRPT some swimmers are doing speed work ( though USRPT is a special case and not exactly what you mean.) I have talked to Rich Abrahams, who broke 50 sec for 100 free at age 65, and he is doing true speed work. He famously said “ most masters swimmers swim too slow when they should be going fast and too fast when they should be going slow”.  I think the last part of that refers to true recovery swims. 

  • in reply to Allen Stark

    NICE - that gave me chills and his records are on my "list"  :) 

  • I honestly think you are off base in how you think swimmers train.  Sure, triathletes and open water swimmers train - ironically, following more of a cycling Zone 2 heavy model - like you describe.  But the workouts I have followed since I started were definitely heavy into speed training.  And as a matter of fact, when COVID hit and I switched up to open water, my speed fell drastically, though I got pretty good at open water.

    That said, I've also seen speed training help endurance swimmers.  One guy I swim with is incredibly fast.  My last 10K was in 2021.  He beat me by one minute.  That's back when my 1650 was in the 21 minute range.  He switched up his training, and now he is doing 1650's in 18 minutes.  His first 500 of the last 1650 I saw him swim was 5:38.  If I were still going to do the 10K's, he'd be asbolutely destroying me.  He is probably 7-8 seconds per 100 faster than me at practice.  And he is 10 years older than me.

    And FWIW, I also do mountain biking.  The weekly local races are typically in the area of one hour long.  The 50+ age group is faster tahn the 40-49.  The younger group is 39 and under, and yes there are guys in their 20's who are faster.  But for whatever reason, age isn't nearly as impactful on cycling as it is for swimming.