time difference btw. block and push starts

Well, today I decide to get closer to what the block start is.You might have already guessed that I tried starting from the deck.Before I go into details I want to clarify exactly what a off-the-wall start for me is:that is I start the clock(I have a stopwatch on my wrist) when I am vertical with my feet on the pool bottom and after that I submerge and push off, so it isn't started when my feet leave the wall. But closer to the point:I tried to start off the deck today and timed myself on a 50-meter breaststroke.Well, I was extremely surprised(in a good way) to see my time improved by 4 seconds(!!!) vs. a wall start.I did not improve, 'cause I timed myself two days ago as usual off the wall and today I was pretty wiped out when timing myself at the end of the work-out.Anyways, I wonder why the difference is so huge.Maybe I have a very good entry into the water or my wall start just plain sucks, if it is the latter, do you think that would mean that I should probably work on my turns, too, and streamlining off the wall, 'cause I probably do not get the most out of my turns.With that, I have a question - wheh you do a wall start and turns do you sbmerge pretty deep or not?Maybe I am too close to the surface? I am even more excited to try a block start.Do you think I will see another improvement even compared to a deck start? I am in a good mood though to see that difference.After all you start off the blocks in a competition and I just kinda shaved 4 seconds off my personal best :-)))I really want to find out how I can swim tapered, shaved, starting off the blocks and pumped up with a competition buzz ...I never tried that yet .I think I should :-)As soon as possible...

How deep to come off the wall is a struggle for me too. I'm not the best flip turner around so I come off at different depths. Sometimes, I'm at the surface right away. More often I come off so deep that I see submarines next to me. (A yellow one with four British guys looking at me?) It's my understanding that the push-off and streamline is best done about 18-24 inches below the surface - just deep enough to get below most of the turbulence at the surface. There is less drag that way. I know that when I come off at about that depth, my turn feels the most efficient. Of course, when doing *** turn, I like to come off a little bit deeper so I can keep that long push-off/pull down going longer. Is that right way? It feels like the right way - but if you're out their Wayne, I'd appreciate your input.

Scansy, You are correct, breaststroke should go a little deeper compared to free and fly. The criteria should be: Have someone look at you about 6 yards from the wall. If they see any disturbance to the waters surface, you need to go deeper. The real secret is to start deeper off the wall, and gradually let your body come to the surface without have to pull it down with the underwater pulldown. Other good advice was given, practice, practice, and do it under the eye of a good coach. A start in shallow water is not a good idea. I don't even attempt in less than 6 feet of water.

One additional factor to consider when comparing a push-off to a block (or deck) start. You will hit the water further out if you start from the deck (and even more so if from a block.) And you will hit the water with greater force (thanks to gravity working in your favor). When you do any start, you are initially moving faster than you would when you are simply swimming. You immediately begin to slow down, and the trick is to be at the surface and start stroking at the point where you've slowed down exactly to the speed you swim at. Hit that too soon and you lose some of the benefit of the start. Hit it too late and you have to do extra work to "catch up." When you do a start from the deck or from the block, that point will occur farther down the lane.

Isn't it moot because it really depends on when you start and stop measuring? I typically watch the clock and prepare for the push off about a second before the interval. My guess (because I can't actually see the clock when I start) is that I push as the clock hits the start time. I notice no difference between my block starts and my wall starts when it comes to time. As I suggested, this is probably because I'm mentally adjusting for the time it takes me to set-up for a wall start. However, I get a body length more glide distance starting from the block. I believe this is really the only accurate comparison we can make. Gun vs. beep - now, that I believe. I've noticed that many swimmers wait until the end of the beep to start. Where a gun simply startles you immediately into action.

Originally posted by mrcnwmn Isn't it moot because it really depends on when you start and stop measuring? Well, just like I said before, I measure using my stop watch on my wrist, I do not have to look at the approximate time on the wall clock, I just stop my watch when I hit the wall and I start it the same way(more or less +/- 0.3 seconds) regardles off when I start in the water or from the deck.So it definitely not the clock/watch discrepancies that give such a gap between my wall and deck starts.I do think that's just how it is for me - obviously I am not complainng, 'cause you start off the blocks, not from the water at the competition...It would suck if my time off the blocks(well it is off the deck for me considering no blocks in my pool) was the same or worse vs. from the water...

As I said, my blocks vs. wall time comparison is: standing at the block start vs. horizontal, in the water about to push off the wall. Given my two starts I don't see any noticeable difference between my times off the wall vs. off the blocks. Of course a legal block start vs. a legal wall start will be different by a second, maybe two - depending on the swimmer. But, I like the fact that I've found a way to measure my potential race speed without using much math. Defending the wall clock: I'd give a ~1/2 second variation on operating the stopwatch itself. This is about the same variation I get from the wall clock. A wall clock may seem less accurate, but a stopwatch changes your stroke slightly, from weight / friction, and most especially in your final stroke to the wall as you press the button. Stopping or looking at your watch at the exact moment each time you get to the wall is also a variable. A stopwatch, worn by the swimmer, will at the very least have a ~1/4 second variation, but I think it's more like a ~1/2 second variation. You asked how much faster you'll go from the blocks. - It's a reasonable question. But, there's no telling what's going to happen when you actually dive off the blocks. Depending on the race, the day, or what you had for breakfast, you may find that the race itself is ~1/2 to ~1 seconds different than what you expected. You should compare your workout sprints with your competition races of the same length. Find the percentage of difference between the two and use it to measure your improvement while training. This is the only accurate way to make a guess as to how fast you're going to be at the next race. Making the assertion that the starting blocks will give you an advantage of a given number of seconds is simply wrong. You don't know until you measure it. Then, everyone is going to have different answers not only because everyone has different starts, but because everyone is measuring the difference starting and stopping at different times. In competition, and all dives being equal, this means that a fast swimmer will see less of an effect from diving than a slower swimmer.

Originally posted by mrcnwmn Isn't it moot because it really depends on when you start and stop measuring? I typically watch the clock and prepare for the push off about a second before the interval. My guess (because I can't actually see the clock when I start) is that I push as the clock hits the start time. I notice no difference between my block starts and my wall starts when it comes to time. As I suggested, this is probably because I'm mentally adjusting for the time it takes me to set-up for a wall start. What I think you are simulating is a "rolling start". When you start from a block (at the sound of the beep or gun), you can't be moving at all. (Otherwise you get ding'd for a false start.) But what you are doing on the wall start is precisely that -- you are moving, and trying to time your "jump" to coincide with the sound of the gun. For many people on the block, there is as much as a second delay (more often a half second, in my estimation) between the sound of the start and their actual movement. So the "mental adjustment" on your wall start is also a physical adjustment. Imagine the change in start dynamics if they had progressing lights to trigger the start -- (like in drag racing)! (Timing your wall start when you know the second hand is going to hit the 12 is a lot like that.) You'd get to fly immediately at the flash of the green light, and you could see exactly when it was coming, and you wouldn't have to stand there in trigger-happy expectation, twitching and tensing and relaxing and possibly getting caught off-guard by a slow-fingered starting official. (I prefer quick starts as close to the "take your mark" announcement as possible.)

Yeah, of course... I'm doing a rolling start from the wall. No argument there. Still, what we're all saying is argumentative. If we use the regulations to define a wall start, we also have to agree that timing yourself isn't accurate or fair either. In order to know the true answer we'd have to hold both kinds of races with the same group of swimmers and measure the differences. And then, the average will have little to do with a specific individual. Not to mention time variations that have nothing to do with the type of start. I feel the point of question is to determine how fast a swimmer will swim using the blocks if all they ever do is practice from the wall. We can all agree that the answer isn't hard-coded. "it should be faster" and that's about all we can say. The amount isn't necessarily a second, two seconds, or even a half a second.