Hand Entry

Look at Phelps, lower portion of the photo unfortunately, and you will see that he is in a period of glide. His lead arm is just starting it's catch and his recovering arm is already above his head. There is clearly no propulsion coming from the man's arms and there hasn't been since his recovering hand left the water. BTW, this is the 200m free final at the '04 Olympics and the other swimmers are Hoogie and Thorpe. Though it is difficult to see, I think that Thorpe is also in a glide phase of his stroke.

my coach had me do this very simple drill to figure out where my hands should enter. cross your legs at the ankles pull as you normally would if your hands are crossing midline or are entering too close to midline your legs will fishtail. move your hands out little by little untill you are no longer fishtailing.

If you notice Hoogenband is at the "T". His stroke, at this point, is probably just fine tuning for the turn he is about to make.

gull80 Please do not regard "Swimming Fastest" as the leading authority of freestyle swimming. Many many top level Olympic coaches feel he is WRONG in almost all his assumptions. The coaches from Australia absolutely do not coach the way described in "Swimming Fastest". When I got my copy, I read it cover to cover. I was appalled at many things (esp. breaststroke) and called many top coaches who also read "Swimming Fastest". It is now a 5 pound door stop. One of my basic philosophies in coaching (hell, in life in general) is this: If the very best athletes and coaches all, or nearly all, agree on a topic then the chances are that they are on the right track and if you want to be truly successful, then you better get on that track too. Emmett is just like Coach Doc. Counsilman, who said he learned more from the great swimmers.

Originally posted by breastroker When I got my copy, I read it cover to cover. I was appalled at many things (esp. breaststroke) and called many top coaches who also read "Swimming Fastest". It is now a 5 pound door stop. Thanks for clearing that up. We live in an old house, and we're always looking for doorstops. I bought my copy of Swimming Fastest when I read in The Swim Coaching Bible (another doorstop?) that Mike Bottom recommended Swimming Even Faster as his textbook. Maglischo may not be the final authority, but he supports his conclusions with data, has an extensive list of references after each chapter, and clearly identifies controversial areas. C'mon, "wrong in almost all of his assumptions"? That's 744 pages of wrong assumptions. My point was that using a catchup style with a glide will result in deceleration, which is something we want to minimize if we want to go faster. I don't think you can look at a still frame of someone swimming freestyle and conclude that there should be a glide phase in the stroke.

Considering that Hoogenband holds the world record for the 100m long course and won gold in that event in the last two Olympics, I think one would be justified in pausing before dismissing his style. One could argue that he trades off a longer body for continuous propulsion. I only have one university course in hydrodynamics and we didn't cover anything remotely as complicated as a swimmer, which I think is largely beyond the current state of the art, but my engineering intuition tells me that Froude numbers are not the explanation of why a long extension of the leading arm is worthwhile, simple streamlining combined with the extended reach achieved by lifting the lead shoulder while lowering the opposite shoulder while completing the pull are much more plausible in my view. I suspect the "morphing tugboat" explanation has no scientific basis. In any case, the image I posted was from near the finish of the race and may not represent his typical stroke. My point is that it can be misleading to draw conclusions from static photos of swimmers, especially if there is someone in the same photo with a different style that is actually beating the person one is using as the model. I looked at several videos of Thorpe and generally could not detect any pause between the end of his pull and the start of his catch. If you want to see someone that does, check out Hackett. Which brings up another issue, which was partially alluded to, giving specific advice about freestyle timing without qualifying whether you are talking about 50m sprints or 1500m races, or open water marathons is dangerous, as is not recognizing the broad variations in style that occur even at the elite level. It is like the thread about kicking where some people tried to generalize about kicking without even qualifying the distance. Brought to you by the committee against pseudo-scientific explanations of swimming technique. ;)

Hines' article makes no mention of the deceleration which has to occur during the time that neither arm is pulling (unless you have a very propulsive kick or you're swimming in a vacuum). This is very well covered in Swimming Fastest. The goal is to minimize the amount of deceleration, assuming that you want to swim faster. That does not mean that you should shorten your stroke or hurry the catch phase, however.

Originally posted by breastroker One of my basic philosophies in coaching (hell, in life in general) is this: If the very best athletes and coaches all, or nearly all, agree on a topic then the chances are that they are on the right track and if you want to be truly successful, then you better get on that track too. Always good advice. Stick with the conventional wisdom of the day. I thought coaches all used to teach a pronounced glide phase in breaststroke ("pull, kick, glide"). Who was it that first broke ranks? Slightly off the subject, but a few years back an unknown physician in Australia had the audacity to propose that stomach ulcers were caused by an infectious process. He was discredited by all of the very best in the field, until they realized he was right. He was actually bold enough to infect himself with the bacteria and cause an ulcer to prove his theory.

Originally posted by 330man Look at Phelps, lower portion of the photo unfortunately, and you will see that he is in a period of glide. I just want to make sure we are on the same page. From your previous posts, it sounds like you are saying that FQS implies that there must be a glide period. I have said that although you can have a glide (period where neither hand is pulling), it is not necessary for FQS. You have given one example of someone who might be gliding. (I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, but these other posts have brought up the issue of overanalyzing one static picture.) That is completely consistent with my viewpoint. If you want to focus on gliding (regardless of FQS), that's fine. Just wanted to make sure we aren't butting heads for no reason. Suppose you are pulling, but the force applied is not enough to maintain your speed (ie. you are decelerating). Would you consider that gliding? I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that Phelps is not pulling. (Again, maybe the video is clearer than the single image I am looking at.) He is not in a position of favorable leverage yet, but it does look like his arm is pointed down (elbow high), in which case he might already be pulling. Originally posted by 330man There is clearly no propulsion coming from the man's arms and there hasn't been since his recovering hand left the water. And for breastroker, one of my favorite anonymous saying: When everyone agrees with you, you should be asking what you are doing wrong. :D