Elbows

IMHO I think that a high elbow recovery in freestyle is optimal....The reason why is because this seems to be the most relaxing recovery possible (i.e. it is the most energy efficient)....The forearm can be almost completely limp during this kind of recovery....If you have a lower elbow recovery, I believe it creates more tension to both the forearm and shoulders? (but I'm not an expert). As far as butterfly goes.....I think that you should recover with very little bend in your elbows at all.....Think of your arms as two oars pulling a row boat.....You want to barely clear the water with them on each recovery....once again, it's all about energy conservation. It also helps to time your kick so that you are getting the maximum propulsion from your kick as your recovering your arms, ....Try and keep your head as low as possible and let your hips drive the front of your body "slightly" downward as your arms recover....Proper timing is crucial with butterfly! When taking breaths, take them quickly ...(and once again don't lift your head very high when your breathing). I believe that proper stroke mechanics is the real key to swimming butterfly (perhaps more so than any other stroke b/c poor mechanics can tire you out faster in butterfly than any other stroke IMHO). I don't know as much about backstroke b/c I am predominantly a butterflier (The 200 butterfly was my best event many many moons ago). I do like the I.M. events though, and so I do swim some backstroke as a result, ....My belief is that you must bend your elbows during the "pull" part of the backstroke, and the last part of the pull is a kind of snap of the elbow (like a tricept curl). I hope that helps....I have really enjoyed reading your posts here!....Congrats on getting such good "distance per stroke" out of your freestyle ...After I read your post about that I counted my strokes per length today during warm up and I was also getting around 12 strokes per length....(when I was pulling with hand paddles I was getting more like 10 or 11 strokes per length b/c I really exaggerate the long pulls when I'm wearing hand paddles). Keep up the good work Seagurl! newmastersswimmer

Seagurl, I just went back and read the post on "distance per stroke" (also under general discussions)... and I realized that it was actually "Swimmin in Dreams" that posted the message about averaging 12 strokes per length....So sorry about the mix up!!.....None-the-less, I have really enjoyed reading the posts you have made here!....I am also a HUGE soccer fanatic!.....I noticed that you mentioned that you were also a soccer fan and coached a little soccer as well. Next to swimming, soccer is my favorite sport.....I do like other sports though.....I live for the Tennessee Vols and since I'm from Houston, I'm pretty excited about the Astros this season,....Luckily the Stros avoided goin down 0-3 in the NLCS today....Hopefully Oswalt will even the series tommorrow (sorry to all the Cards fans out there but I got a pull for my home town boys).....I still remember the painful end to so many other post season showings....The most painful was to the Mets in 86 when the Stros lost the NCLS series in 6 in the 16th inning.....Hopefully this will be the year! newmastersswimmer p.s. Did you see the 6:0 pounding the U.S. Men's National soccer team served up to Panama the other nite??

I'm glad my advice on the freestyle recovery helped you some. I also wanted to say that it's hard to articulate the proper stroke mechanics of butterfly in some ways (I'm no expert at this either!!).....I read another post here titled something like "dolphin kick" or "butterfly kick"...which you may want to read (it has really cool underwater pictures of Micheal Phelps during both his "arm entry phase" of butterfly and the beggining of his "arm recovery phase" of his butterfly as well). Phelps apparently uses what many others (including myself) use...and that's a two kick per stroke butterfly style. When I mentioned that you want to be experiencing an optimal amount of propulsion from your kick while your arms are recovering, that does not mean that you have to put your single dolphin kick ....or your predominant power dolphin kick (in the case that you use a two kick per stroke style) into your stroke right as you are beggining your arm recovery phase. I don't actually think about it when I'm doing it (it is more of an automatic thing for me b/c I have swam so much butterfly in my life I suppose)....but I believe that my primary kick may come "around the time" my arms are entering the water (or shortly thereafter?) followed by a shorter and tighter secondary kick "just before" my arms begin their recovery phase....This extra secondary kick is what gives me the extra momentum (i.e. propulsion) while my arms are recovering (so that I am not stagnant in the water when both of my arms are out of the water)....It is really more of a sensational thing than a cerebral thing if that makes any sense....I think I adapted the style out of neccesity after many years of swimming the stroke and searching for some kind of comfort zone? Body position is also very important for butterfly (as it is with all strokes I guess)....I try to stay fairly level for the most part....but I do let my hips raise and sort of drive the front part of my torso slightly doward as I am beggining to enter the water with my arms on each stroke. It's definitlely a highly "nontrivial" ordeal to swim butterfly with any degree of efficiency. Good Luck with it (and your backstroke as well!) newmastersswimmer

Thank you for the help. I tried keeping my elbows higher and my forearm looser and it did seem to help. As for my fly arms...my stroke is getting better so I think my arms are just kind of following. Now I just have to worry about my backstroke. Thanx again!! ~Kyra

Originally posted by Seagurl51 2. During the underwater pull on backstroke, do you bend your elbows or not? I dont' because sometimes it hurts the inside of my elbows and I feel like I get a better pull going straight back. All your other questions are somewhat debateable. This one is not. You should definitely bend your elbows in the backstroke pull. If you have a good internet connection you might want to look at some of the videos here: www.swim.ee/.../index.html You'll see a variety of stroke styles, but all have one thing in common--they're effective. There is no one correct way to do any stroke (but you definitely want to bend your elbows in backstroke).

Someone at the pool today actually complimented me on my butterfly and asked me some questions about technique and such. Hopefully I didn't screw them over by saying what little I knew. So I just wanted to say thanx for all your help!!! ~Kyra

Thanx a lot for mentioning that site. I looked around it when I was there and found a lot of great stuff for all my strokes. The pics of the underwater backstroke really helped break down what I need to do, so again, Thanx! ~Kyra

I saw the other post with the pictures...so between those pictures and reading what other people have said I finally found a comfortable rythm. It seems to be helping so I can really concentrate on my form now. Slow but surely Im getting better at butterfly! ~Kyra

I am so glad to here that you are progressing so well! I don't know whether or not my advice is all that good.....It just seems to work for me??......I am very impressed by your dedication to improvement. You will go a long way in this sport with that kind of positive attitude! newmastersswimmer

Thank you very much for the compliment. I really appreciate it! ~Kyra