What have WE become?

Ion, you missed Tom's point! Again! His point is not the fact that you answer back and defend yourself, we all expect you to do that and would/will do that ourselves!!!!!! Now, listen carefully, because I have seen a lot of people try and tell you this.....IT IS THE WAY YOU DO IT!!! It is the words you SAY! You come off quite often as being mean in the way you talk back to people! There is not a soul in here that faults you for being passionate about this sport! I personally love the passion for this sport that comes from you! It is purely in the way you come across that people do not like, including myself! I'm sure you'll probably blast me for this....but you know what? I am not thin skinned so it just don't matter!

kiwi, are you from New Zealand? I remember that in another recent thread you asked me what has coach Bill Sweetenham (Aus.) done for the U.K. swimming that U.K. coaches haven't done, and I didn't answer that question. In the thread 'Dubai -proposed changes' I vowed to not post anymore because it was getting into bickering at anything that I was writing just for the sake of bickering, and it was not a productive discussion anymore. I wanted to e-mail you or send you a private message asking to get your question elsewhere, but they aren't available. Your question came here, and I am answering it here. I only do pool competitions, not open water races. To me open water is a different sport than pool competition. In pool I did one hour of continuous swim of a little over 4,600 yards. It amounts to maybe one hour and eleven minutes for a 5,000 meters swim non stop. Open water people train in pool like me, and most of them don't have speed, but they have steady endurance. They swim with the head up to see above waves, don't do flip turns and don't do starts from the blocks in practice. Their training is distance, a steady training, without big sprints. The training for pool competitions is more high-tech than 'Distance Training' is, with: 1.) kicking sets; 2.) four strokes sets; 3.) breath control; 4.) diving from the block; 5.) flip turns; 6.) 'Explosive Sprint Training'; 7.) 'Sprint Race Training'; 8.) 'VO2Max Training'; 9.) 'Anaerobic Threshold Training'; 10.) skinny competitors who don't need the fat required in the open water to stay warm, but need to be slender so that the blood flows fast during high heart rate burst races of two minutes. 6.), 7.), 8.) and 9.) ensure that fourteen hours -or so- of weekly training get condensated in a two minutes race like a karate man unleashes a concentrated blow in a split second. The heart rate during these two minutes is at its highest and stays there. The 'Distance Training' of the open water doesn't have this speed and heart intensity, it is a steady pace for hours. This is fitness for open water and triathlon, which is how it is raced, in fitness. Comparing pool competition with open water is like comparing the high-tech fast swimming of Alex Popov (Rus.) with the fitness swimming of triathlete Peter Reid (Can.), two different sports. Distance pool competitors at the Olympic level, like Chad Carvin (U.S.), Alex Kostich (U.S.), Chris Thompson (U.S.), Ryk Neethling (R.S.A.), Christina Teuscher (U.S.), Brooke Bennett (U.S.), Hannah Stockbauer (Ger.), etc., they do open water competitions even if it is different than pool racing, I think because they like to win the prize money.

Ion, all the things I do for you! - I summarize your position to make it clear what you are trying to say, in the hope that people will let the issue rest. - I clarify the difference between 'cop' and 'cope' - I tell everyone how to pronounce your name And you tell me I am 'something'! (?) But you are right about my changing my mind about anonymous postings. I was worried that people wouldn't tell you what they thought (of you) if they had to give their name. But I was WRONG! (!) (so things are all right, now.) Anyway, the "'" around 'nastiness' implies I really don't agree with that assessment. I have been consistent in encouraging free speech on this forum, and my post was trying to say that people were making a bigger deal about your threads then they deserved.

Ion, I have to keep asking,as I am really interested in what you mean when you wrote that you could beat most posters in the 1,000 and beyond. This is the third time I have asked you to please post your results of all the races you have competed in open water, without a wetsuit, over 5kms, the distances, your finish time,where they were held, the water temperature, if it was Fina sanctioned. It is always nice to find another swimmer who competes in indoor sprint events as well as long distance open water. I realize you are very busy with other posts, but could you please answer this post. Thank you. Happy training.

I have friends who love open water swimming and are always saying I should try it. But it just doesn't appeal to me. I am in awe at it, I think it must be very hard, but the water around here is pretty nasty, and while I could go up to Chicago and do some up there, that is cold, brrrrr. I think it is to each his/her own whether they compete pool or open swimming. Kiwi, I enjoyed your training descriptions, our rivers around here are far, far from clear. :) They would be tough to swim up stream right now, as they are all at high flood state!

Ion, Thank you for posting a reply to my question. I appreciate your passion for the sport, especially as a 'late bloomer' That is a very good pool time for 5kms, for those with excellent flip turns and an effective push off each wall, there would be an adjustment in the time in the open water. Of course added to this would be the water conditions, temperature, currents wind etc. Because I don't have excellent turns, I actually gain time, I swim faster in a 5km in the open water than I do in a pool. I swim a 1hr 14 (which includes a feed break, necessary as I am a Type 1 insulin Dependent Diabetic) in the open water in 72 degree water, calm conditions, no wetsuit. I would like to share with you my training schedule. I train all of the 1-10. I need all of those skills and more to be able to be a successful indoor and open water swimmer. I do kick sets galaore to ensure my kick keeps me well balanced and supported in all swims, and I need to have this well trained when treading water for feeding breaks, and for me as a type 1 insulin dependedent diabetic, for the longer breaks needed to test my blood sugars. I train all four strokes, and medley. I see this as keeping my swimming well rounded. I train breath control as this is useful in the open water when it is really rough and I can't always get a breath when I take one. (I have developed a great technique for swallowing quickly rather than inhaling! I train' economy' breathing where I can easily swim a 25m length with no breath, as well as the other types of breath control sets. AS a dive is only used once in a race, I do train this as well as 'dead starts' where you are floating and then take off, as some water starts are in deep water. I am learning to be better at flip turns. I also train turns going tightly and quickly around a buoy. Expolsive sprint training, sprint training, VO2 Max training and Anaerobic training is also done, like other indoor swimmers, several times in each macro, meso and micro cycle. I am coached by professional top level coaches. While distance swimmers have endurance ability, because of their body make up (more slow twitch fibers) they do train speed to improve their technique strength and ability to hold a faster pace for longer. I use 3-4 different styles of freestyle depending on the weather conditions. So I do drills every single day as part of my training sessions. Open water swimmer, those whom I have competed with and trained with, don't swim with their heads above the water. We train in the ability to swim in a straight line. We train to be able to pull evenly on both sides so we can go straight. If there is a current, well those one arm drills sure are handy ! I do lift my head to sight, but I have this trained in a most energy efficient way, and I look up depending on conditions , course when I want/need to. (sometimes it is to communicate with the boat person. If you have a boat person, (I have to have a boat person at all times in races, usually support crew accompany on 10km or longer swims) then you really only need to look up to see the progress you are making, and the beautiful scenery. It is the job of the boat person to hold the line. If there is lots to see beneath me, then I look up even less ;) I train with Peter Reid, Laurie Bowden, Simon Whitfield, as well as other top triathletes once a week and all have a lot of speed.(It is an hour drive to this session each way) A couple of weeks ago at the end of our session, we did a timed 400m and Simon clocked in an easy 4:10. I consider that time to be excellent. For the past 5 years I have had the incredible opportunity to be coached by a person who trained the Fastest in the world in womens 50 free in 2003, and he also trained two of us who swam the furtherest in marathon swimming in Canada that year.(that was my question, who was this coach and who was the swimmer in the 50 free, not about Bill Sweetenham) In the indoor season, I compete in all sorts of meets for masters, including Nationals, Provincials, and I have also done World Master Championships. My outdoor season begins in late June, early July depending on temerature. I begin with shorter swims to acclimatize and season my lean body to the cold waters. I train against the current of a river which ensures I most certainly do get to train sprint and VO2 max as I do 3-4 minute ladders in one part of the river which is extremely difficult to get up, (the trout, and crayfish underneath me in the clear clean waters, wave me on) and another part where I try and hold against the swift current for 20 secs or longer(Here I think I am amusement for the fish, crayfish and clams who watch with open mouths!) . I also do fartleck sets, 'on the way' swims (where you have to beat the last interval and continue on for the next distance etc. My season ends after the last race around Aug 15th. Last year I logged 430+ kms in the open water. (That averages 10-12+ kms a day, including several hours devoted to wave practise where I swim into, across the waves and with the waves behind me - if you don't have good body balance and an excellent core, pray for calm weather. No I wasn't asking about Sweetenham, whom I have also met. Rather about the coach and swimmer I know from the UK. I didn't get a reply from that, but I understand how busy you are with all the other posts to reply to. Ion try an open water swim. They are so much fun. Come North and do your first one here! Ion, do you remember telling me how much I didn't know? I hope over the other threads, and by explaining this you may see that I do actually know something about swimming. I am busy with everything to do with swimming including motivating, educating, guest speaker on several topics, and training others. By the way I learnt to swim at 33, and I am now a young 49. So c'mon, Ion. Just try an open water swim. You would do well. And you might even be surprised how good it actually feels to take it outside the lines. Pick one and do it. It's an amazing challenge. Doing these distances in a pool would be ever so boring. Not so outside. Ps. I do my LSD (long slow distance in 2 lakes, both steps from my house. One is a smaller lake which I have a 300m across to a rock where I can do dive starts ;), a 200m, and 500m measured distances, for on the way swims in a 1km (GPS'd)loop down the lake. I average around 12 loops in this beautiful lake, + the 300m crossing each way. I train in the river when I don't have a boat as the community know me well, and really watch out for me. It is mostly not over my head, and not too wide so the shore is always easy to get to. In the big lake I do the much longer distances, usually 4-6 hours at a stretch. And it is where I get terrific wave practise in the afternoon.

Kiwi, Great post. Thanks for sharing that. I am not a late starter (middle and long distance in college) but only joined Masters about eighteen months ago. I competed in a 2 mile open water swim last summer. It was a great experience and definitely not just a fitness swim. I didn't find that my pool time for a mile was predictive of my time in the ocean (presumably due to the effects of waves and current). I suspect that I ended up swimming more than the official 2 mile distance of the race.

kiwi, this is a a quick note before me dissecting your post. Is that you in the picture? Maybe you and your training partners are exceptional. I speak in general about open water compared to pool swimming. Simply said, pool swimming is more speed and that's what I look for. Regarding 5k in pool, I have poor turns that penalize me. In the 90s I did 50X100 meter free Long Course leaving every 1:30, which is 5k in 1 hour and 15 minutes, and one day I did 7x1,000 meters Long Course leaving every 15 minutes. I think that I can do today 50x100 free Long Course leaving every 1:30. Regarding the U.K. sprinter, there is Alison Sheppard from Scotland who trains in Canada under Gary van der Meulen. Gary van der Meulen is mainly a pool swimmer who made the Canadian national team in the 90s.

Originally posted by lefty I did my first pool mile ever last week (in a race that is). I am curious to those who are experienced: Assuming the conditions are good, how much slower is an open water mile vs pool mile (which isn't really a mile). My mile time was 18:37 (1:07.7 per hunrdred, so a real mile (1760 Yards) would have been right at 20 Minutes. And in a college practice I did 3500 yards in 40 Minutes / 25 seconds. Thoughts... Given your speed, I wouldn't worry about it.:D It's a hard question to answer since there are all kinds of variables involved: Wind, waves, currents, drafting, sharks, Godzilla, etc. It also varies by a person's mindset. However, all things being as equal as they can be, the general rule of thumb I've always seen is about 5 seconds slower per 50 yards than in a 25 yard pool. That has always seemed too much, so let's say that that is the upper limit barring anything too unusual. Also keep in mind that the art and science of measuring distances in open water is alot more art than science and often artistic license is the word of the day. Give it a try! IMHO it is far more fun than pool swimming. But please don't tease the sharks - it gets them grumpy for the slower swimmers (like me) who will follow after. -LBJ

Originally posted by Leonard Jansen Give it a try! IMHO it is far more fun than pool swimming. But please don't tease the sharks - it gets them grumpy for the slower swimmers (like me) who will follow after. Just remember, as long as you're faster than one other swimmer the sharks won't get you! :p I love open water swimming. Haven't done an open water swim in a LONG time though :( Not many (acutally I only know of one) open water swims around here. Did my first open water swim at summer zones when I was senior in HS, been hooked ever since :D