While stimulating the brain cells over the discussion re age and VO2 max, I re read a lot of my neurology books and journal publications.
I will try to summarize some basics about motor learning, how it is stored.
Motor control is our ability to move in space.
Motor learning is the study of the acquisition and or modification of movement.
While motor control focuses on understanding the control of movement already acquired (learning swimming technique), motor learning focuses on understanding the acquisition or modification of movement (refining technique.) Motor learning involves more than motor process. It involves learning new strategies for sensing as well as moving (e.g. the feel of the water) Thus, like motor control, emerges from a complex of perception-cognition-action process. This process of motor learning can be described as the search for a task that emerges from the interaction of the individual with the task and the environment. Procedural learning refers to learning tasks that can be performed automatically. This develops slowly through repetition of an act over many trials, and is expressed through improved performance of the task that was practiced. During motor skill acquisition, repeating a movement continuously under varying circumstances (eg drills) would typically lead to procedural learning.
There are several theories related to Skilled Learning. Basically, after a person learns a movement 4 things are stored in memory. A) the initial movement conditions, such as position and amount of force, sequence of joints. B) the parameters used in the generalized motor program. C) the outcome of the movement in terms on knowledge of results and d) the sensory consequences of the movement.
There are several factors involved in the consideration of movement training.
1. Feed back. There are 2 kinds. A) Intrinsic e.g. coming from the sensory systems as a result of the normal production of movement. This includes visual information as to the accuracy of the movement, as well as somatosensory information concerning the position of the limbs as one is moving. The person is able to tell say a coach how this movement feels. B) Extrinsic feedback is when another person asks the person to adjust the movement.
2. Feed forward. This occurs at a different level in the brain. It is when a person can draw on a past motor memory to reproduce that movement. If you ask a person to move their arms like they were swinging a baseball bat, then if they have done that movement they will be able to feed forward and reproduce the movement.
3. The brain does not process in a linear hierarchical manner. Processing is serial, parallel and multi-modal
4. Aspects of movement are ‘hardwired’. Synergies are coded in the brain through the ‘hardwiring of the groups of neurons. This is how the brain controls multiple degrees of freedom of the joints rapidly and efficiently. Simply put, neurons that fore together, wire together. For example when a person has a stoke and needs to re learn how to walk, they can through the process of feed forward and the pathways and muscle memory areas draw on that to gain movement back.
5. All movement relies on the sensory information in a “feedback” and a “feed forward” way. Feed back is especially important for the learning of a new movement. Movements are coded in the nervous system related to context and task.
I have lots more including the differences between Kinesthesia, proprioception and body awareness all important in this learning process.
However I think that this helps to illustrate why a person who has learnt to swim and has achieved a good skill level by swimming as a young person has the ability to swim well as an adult. I agree that the conditioning and training effects may not be there, but with training this will return to a degree, perhaps not quite to the same level. But that depends on the individual.
The individual’s overall state of being influences the nervous system’s ability to learn.
That is why late bloomers can learn and train and achieve.
Just my thoughts!
Former Member
This is certainly an interesting thread.
I wonder how many people show up to practice with a specific goal in mind like perfecting technique rather than just grinding out the yardage. A coach can be instrumental in providing better insight should something be quirky, unless you have a very keen "feel" for the water and can modify stroke patterns on your own. This ability to feel the water in my opinion is not common in most swimmers, at least not the late starters.
It's better to learn how to become an energy efficient swimmer first and foremost rather than a stronger or faster one. Having better form results in less energy loss, and ultimately leads to faster times. Fitness levels are a product of just showing up to workouts every week. Technique is something that has to be acquired.
Originally posted by valhallan
Fitness levels are a product of just showing up to workouts every week. Technique is something that has to be acquired.
I agree with this - you can improve fitness and endurance by doing drills. And in my case it keeps my mind in the workout as well.
I swam for about six months without doing drills or focusing on my stroke at all - when I first started swimming. Then I started doing drills and became faster almost overnight.
I have been testing my 'theory' for the past 8 weeks with a group of 'new swimmers'. These are members of an adult competitive running group who want to do a triathalon. 3 were almost 'non swimmers' most had very little swimming experience ever. 2 were in a development masters group, and 2 come sporadically to the pool and do their 1km and get out.
By incorporating the way in which a skill is acquired and learnt through procedural learning and the use of knesthetic and body awarness training I was so happy with the results.
I used various dryland exercises on different pieces of equipment for 30 mins prior so the muscles and mind were focusing. I began with the ABC"s Air exchange, Body Balance and Coordination and timing. Each week I added another drill and skill level if the last one was mastered. I also worked the different energy systems and taught them how to change gears and speed up! (Which for endurance athletes is quite difficult, but by 8 weeks their ability to 'build to fast' in a 25m repeat was impressive.) An added bonus they all learnt, and were sucessfull at, kicking!
One lady, who at first was not comfortable with her head in the water, swam in a very tense and stiff 45 degree angle, needing a rest at each end, made dramatic improvements. I did a test set at the beginning, a 20 minute swim in a 25 meter pool. She managed 11x 50's in 20 mins. By the end of the 8 week session (water session was 90 mins) I repeated the test set. I took their total at 20 mins , but to demonstrate how much all 12 had improved, I extended the set to 30 mins. She did 11x50 in 16 minutes and did 22x50 in 30 mins. She held an excellent body position, was getting a body roll, had a much better stroke length and technique was dramatically better.
The improvements were literally seen in every swimmer, resulting in happy and motivated swimmers.
I have to say that this Conscious Awarness has reminded me to be more focused and aware. At workouts with my lanemates, we have been focuing on this and have all seen improvements. I have reduced my 100m repeats by an easy 4 sec improvement.
I should have been thinking of this all along, but as we go along each day, some things just get looked over. Thanks to the 'discussions' on other threads ;), I did some thinking about how we learn and training effects. So thank you to this board for stimulating my brain and improving my swimming, as well as others.
Originally posted by 2go+h20
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I have to say that this Conscious Awarness has reminded me to be more focused and aware. At workouts with my lanemates, we have been focuing on this and have all seen improvements. I have reduced my 100m repeats by an easy 4 sec improvement.
I should have been thinking of this all along, but as we go along each day, some things just get looked over. Thanks to the 'discussions' on other threads ;), I did some thinking about how we learn and training effects. So thank you to this board for stimulating my brain and improving my swimming, as well as others.
If I am reading this right, you are trying to say that doing drills and swimming without thinking about what you are doing - paying attention to the feel of the water - will not allow a swimmer to improve as much as they could? Do I have that right?
If so, I would agree. Both in the long term sense - if you really think about the feel and the proper body position, anchoring the hand, body roll etc over time it will become more natural and you will be able to feel when you are doing it right and when you are not. But also in the short term sense. For example, today I swim and don't think about my stroke enough because I am stressed about work, kids, whatever and I am slower. Then tomorrow I swim and am focused and I swim faster. By as much as 5 seconds over 100 yards.
As a relative newcomer to swimming, I am amazed at how much of it is mental and technique compared to running and many other forms of exercise.
Originally posted by dorothyrd
Yes, 4 years into this swimming thing and I still fell that if I don't think about what I am doing all the time, then I get sloppy and go nowhere.
Don't feel bad, after 20 yrs. of swimming I still (try to anyway) concentrate on every single stroke I take so I don't get sloppy :)
Scansy, that is right. By doing a drill that focuses on a certain aspect of the stroke for 25m and then following this with a 25m swim in this stroke focusing on what the drill was teaching is an excellent idea to teach your body the technique needed to swim efficiently. Repeating the drill 3-4 times is good. You can progress the drills or change the drill to focus on a different aspect. Eg body roll, relaxed recovery, catch, finish, high elbows under water as opposed to drop and slice elbows.
With my lanemates we warm up on dryland doing the movements needed in our workout. Lying on a physio ball, using your legs for balance and doing the strokes is excellent. You can also do free and *** kick as well, use your hands for balance. Focus on the movement and then concentrate when doing your warmups.
Progress the drills carefully so each progression is mastered before moving on.
This morning I was solicited to 'teach' new adult swimmers fly. By doing a series of progressions with fins on, by 45 mins all 3 had the undulation, and timing for breathing and they looked good! We finished the progressions with the end goal of full stroke fly for 1/2 a length. They accomplished 4x 25m full stroke fly with fins in a good techniqe. And were so happy that 'it wasn't that hard to learn'
I am so happy to see that keeping your focus and thinking about your body and what it takes to move efficiently through the water is improving swimming ability.
Keep up the good work. You will see impressive results.
Yes, 4 years into this swimming thing and I still fell that if I don't think about what I am doing all the time, then I get sloppy and go nowhere. I don't think it will ever be "second nature" although lately I do feel like I am "getting it " somewhat. Of course the minute I do, someone will watch me and pick apart my stroke.... hey if you do this, and this and this, you will be that much faster!!! Every little tip helps!
I appreciate this discussion.
In triathlon we see that the corss over effects from other sports are generally limited but do exist.
Confining the experience to swimming; most of us are familiar with the idea that working on one's fly or backstroke will help the freestlye. Or breastroke or whatever. I also tend to believe that the benefit of many of our pool toys are in the kinesthetic awareness and proprioreception area. In the pull we have swimming with fists, sculling, paddles and normal sculling all included as part of many folks' workouts at some time or another. I think much of the benefit of these things is the presentation of new sensations. These new experiences seem to help us make better sense of the old ones.
You can say the same about the use of pull bouys, fins, drag suits, just about any piece of equipment we use. They all partially fall under a broad umbrella of what we can call motor learning. I went to a seminar recently that talked about this very issue.
The idea of how much we concentrate when working out reminds me of a recent article about associators (those who are intently aware of their bodies when competing and dissociators - those whose mind goes elsewhere. Some study showed that the triathletes at the highest levels tended to be associators - keenly aware of what is going on at all times.
In my own case, it changes by stroke! I'm an associator in freestyle, dissociator in backstroke and ***. Fly is kind of a different animal alltogether.
I am also not suprised to hear stories of young people trained in one sport good at anopther. But what that points to is a bit up in the air. Is it that they have trained in one sport or is it that they are good athletes with naturally high kinesthtic awareness and proprioreception. I don't know that answer but wouldn't be surprised to find out either way.
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
I am also not suprised to hear stories of young people trained in one sport good at anopther. But what that points to is a bit up in the air. Is it that they have trained in one sport or is it that they are good athletes with naturally high kinesthtic awareness and proprioreception. I don't know that answer but wouldn't be surprised to find out either way.
I think the answer is that both cardiovascular fitness and high kinesthetic awareness/proprioception contribute to being a good athlete....especially in swimming! I've noticed that the kinesthetic awareness tend to be more important in swimming. When I try to correct the strokes of a child that I coach, I can immediately tell the ones that have a good "mind-body" connection. They listen to what I tell them and usually start doing it immediately. They are the ones that end up improving the fastest and having the best technique in the long run. They "get it". Of course fitness matters too but, I truly believe that EVERY swimmer, regardless of their speed, needs to concentrate on the feel of the water and technique. Even Olympic level athletes do stroke drills to maintain thie "feel" of the water.
