While stimulating the brain cells over the discussion re age and VO2 max, I re read a lot of my neurology books and journal publications.
I will try to summarize some basics about motor learning, how it is stored.
Motor control is our ability to move in space.
Motor learning is the study of the acquisition and or modification of movement.
While motor control focuses on understanding the control of movement already acquired (learning swimming technique), motor learning focuses on understanding the acquisition or modification of movement (refining technique.) Motor learning involves more than motor process. It involves learning new strategies for sensing as well as moving (e.g. the feel of the water) Thus, like motor control, emerges from a complex of perception-cognition-action process. This process of motor learning can be described as the search for a task that emerges from the interaction of the individual with the task and the environment. Procedural learning refers to learning tasks that can be performed automatically. This develops slowly through repetition of an act over many trials, and is expressed through improved performance of the task that was practiced. During motor skill acquisition, repeating a movement continuously under varying circumstances (eg drills) would typically lead to procedural learning.
There are several theories related to Skilled Learning. Basically, after a person learns a movement 4 things are stored in memory. A) the initial movement conditions, such as position and amount of force, sequence of joints. B) the parameters used in the generalized motor program. C) the outcome of the movement in terms on knowledge of results and d) the sensory consequences of the movement.
There are several factors involved in the consideration of movement training.
1. Feed back. There are 2 kinds. A) Intrinsic e.g. coming from the sensory systems as a result of the normal production of movement. This includes visual information as to the accuracy of the movement, as well as somatosensory information concerning the position of the limbs as one is moving. The person is able to tell say a coach how this movement feels. B) Extrinsic feedback is when another person asks the person to adjust the movement.
2. Feed forward. This occurs at a different level in the brain. It is when a person can draw on a past motor memory to reproduce that movement. If you ask a person to move their arms like they were swinging a baseball bat, then if they have done that movement they will be able to feed forward and reproduce the movement.
3. The brain does not process in a linear hierarchical manner. Processing is serial, parallel and multi-modal
4. Aspects of movement are ‘hardwired’. Synergies are coded in the brain through the ‘hardwiring of the groups of neurons. This is how the brain controls multiple degrees of freedom of the joints rapidly and efficiently. Simply put, neurons that fore together, wire together. For example when a person has a stoke and needs to re learn how to walk, they can through the process of feed forward and the pathways and muscle memory areas draw on that to gain movement back.
5. All movement relies on the sensory information in a “feedback” and a “feed forward” way. Feed back is especially important for the learning of a new movement. Movements are coded in the nervous system related to context and task.
I have lots more including the differences between Kinesthesia, proprioception and body awareness all important in this learning process.
However I think that this helps to illustrate why a person who has learnt to swim and has achieved a good skill level by swimming as a young person has the ability to swim well as an adult. I agree that the conditioning and training effects may not be there, but with training this will return to a degree, perhaps not quite to the same level. But that depends on the individual.
The individual’s overall state of being influences the nervous system’s ability to learn.
That is why late bloomers can learn and train and achieve.
Just my thoughts!
Specificity and generality in sport says (something to the effect) that if you want to learn to do something well, you have to train (train well) at the specific item you want to do well in.
You won't become a good, say, baseball player by playing basketball. I'm sure you won't become a good swimmer by training on a track running although there may be some minor benefit (cardio or whatever).
You also won't become a good swimmer by spending too much time in the forums, typing away, instead of training:D (reference to the "other" thread).
Jim
I reposted the information above incase there is some interest in this topic.
The other thread is so active, that my post which
I placed earlier today, is already a page and growing behind.
Just curious, but does anyone out there think the motor learning and motor control aspect plays a part in the development of a swimmer?
And does this ability to retrieve (as in feed forward) play a part in the subsequent ability of the swimmer after a significant time away from the sport?
And what about a person who developed an excellent training regime in another sport during their developing years (as in youth), that challenged all energy systems and took up swimming later in life. Do you think the training effect --- dare I say V02Max, --- can aid the person to adapt and train well in a new sport?
Any thoughts?
Well, maybe Ion should compare himself to Shane Gould who is about two years older than him. She swam a 2:20 last summer in 200 meter free. Also, she can swim Im something that Ion can't do. Ion will say the comparsion is unfair because she won three events at the 1972 olympics.
Hola Kiwi (hope not too offensive)
I think motor learning and motor control play a good role in developing a swimmer. A term that I am aware of is Kinesthic awareness, this being aware of what your body is doing (I have a poor kinesthic awareness when it comes to golf, I don't think I lift my head when I swing, yet everything wrong in my swing coordinates with this flaw).
In line with your thought, since my belief of technique is important are individuals better suited to be swimmers or whatevers, not just body type muscle build but some ingrain feel for the water or whatever the task is. Much as Nolan Ryan was destined to be a fast ball pitcher, his awareness to throw a 100mph pitch is still to this day almost unmatched.
So in regards to relearning the skill after a lay off, I think those people have a predisposition to learn or relearn those skill. When I started back swimming was when things were changing in strokes,TI-balance, wave breastroke, new backstroke flip turns were all being introduced, and I was able to pick these new swim skills up rather rapidly - though they were a certain departure of the skills I learned when I swam age group - so maybe I had a predisposition to aquiring these skills (not sure, but just a thought) I have seen both sides of the spectrum in regards to new swimmers - those that egt in the water and fight with it for several months regardless of how we work on their skills and others who after a few weeks have pretty much mastered basic swim technique and ready to move on. Would definitely be interested in hearing other opinions/explanations.
People were not swimming 90,000 to 100,000 yards or meters in the early 1970's because goggles didn't come available unitl late 1971 for most swimmers. Many of the top teams by 1972, had few swimmers swim over 10,000 yards a day. How do I know because I was on a team with Shirley Babashoff. Who still didn't train 90,000 to 100,000. until 1974. It was Mission Viejo's Mark S that introduced the 90,000 to 100,000 yard workouts and she was on Mission by late 1973.
I think there is a a strong argument about what a body has the ability to do. Finding a person with the natural apptitude for the sport and developing them is important. Keeping them with a fire and passion for training is another intergral part. (Plus a strong work ethic and the ability to focus and train well.)
Different sports require an ability to perform the movements with a different use of each muscle. These muscles need to have either a greater percentage of fast twitch fibres, eg sprinters, basketball players, slow twitch fibres eg endurance athletes, or a mix. Given the different body make up of each individual could explain why some bodies can be best suited to a particular sport or multisports.
With regard to Kinesthesia and proprioception and body awareness: Kinesthesia and proprioception used to be used synonymously. However thanks to recent technologies and research this is not an accurate description of what is happening in the brain.
Kinesthesia is the concious awareness of the body movement in space, including rate, timing and force of a movement. Kinesthetic awareness includes information from the vestibular, cutaneous, muscle and joint receptors.
Proprioception is connected with how we process what our body can do kinesthetically ie proprioceptive feedback and perception of joint and body movement.
Body awareness requires concious connection to the sensory feedback in order to create a map of the body in space.
Much of our body awareness or kinesthesia is actually derived from part of the feed forward mechanism also known as internal feed back.
How we feel the water is a measure of how these three mechanisms work in each individual.
The key difference is Concious awareness. NOt all proprioception is conciously processed.
So when learning and refining a skill, a person needs to be able to develop their ability to feel a movement and understand what they are feeling when performing this movement.
Once this has been established then a person will be able to either transfer or learn a new skill with more ease than a person who has not developed this.
Don't forget that producing a movement also depends on the range of movement and strength to perform the action. Balance in all muscle groups, and muscles having a good length, anad appropriate training effects contribute to a more efficient movement.
I would think if a person has a well developed ability to learn and process a skill, that given the make up of their body will be able to learn and achieve in a different sport. Perhaps that is why there is a difference in ability.
And does this ability to retrieve (as in feed forward) play a part in the subsequent ability of the swimmer after a signigicant time away from the sport?
I hope I getting at what your trying to ask, but isn't this like riding a bike? Once you learn you it you don't forget it. I'm sure after some time off you may lose some of the skills and techniques you need for swimming, but I never knew anyone who had to relearn the basics. After several yearsoff I was able to get back into the pool and swim a few laps without being taught how to swim again.
And what about a person who developed an excellent trainging regime in another sport during their developing years (as in youth), that challenged all energy systems and took up swimming later in life.
I think any training in any sport will carry over in some way. I am a great beleiver in cross training. I did track all four years in high school. I did not join swimming until my junior year. After swimming my junior year my track times improved dramatically. I was able to take two whole minutes off of my 2 mile the first meet of the season. If swimming carries over into running I would think that other sports in some way or another would carry over into swimming.
I could be way off base but this is just what I thought about it.:confused:
Dorothyrd,
I too have observed how children who have done gymnastics are able to learn a new skill quickly.
I encourage younger swimmers to participate in another sport and highly recommend gymnastics because of this.
They are trained to be very aware of where they are in space, how timing is critical, how much force is needed to perform a skill, about sequence of joints, and most importantly about focus or conscious awareness. They also do a lot of visualization which is another aspect of training that pays huge dividends.
I wonder about body proportion as opposed to height, and as well body type. I have seen what would have been considered 'the least likely body type to achieve' glide gracefully, effortlessly and so efficiently through the water, setting new records as a young person. And how powerful that was for the person. The competition would look over to the blocks, see this body and think "well I've got that one". I loved the reaction at the end. This larger body waiting for the others to finish. I have also seen this with the very small body types.
On another note, how many swimmers today made an effort to be "consciously aware" during practise? How did it feel? If you were given feedback from the coach, or you gave intrinsic feedback and the coach gave extrinsic feedback what was the result?
Yes, that is what I was getting at. That those who have learnt the skills have the ability to retrieve those skills.
Don't forget, bad habits and poor technique is also retrievable. Most noticable when fatigued, or when conscious awareness or focus is missing. Which is why it takes so long to correct a poorly learnt technique.
And that the training effect can have some transfer effect as well.
Hence the variance in ability of 'late bloomers'.(which is an interesting term. How well did each achieve, for how long are huge variables )
Those who have excellent ability to feel a movement, where their body is in space and have trained in another area previous to swimming training can and do do well.
I'm sorry if I wasn't clear. My idea is to look at how a person achieves in a sport through a complex process of learning.
I am trying to get some input as to technique incorporated into each workout versus high mileage and not so many drills to see how this theory sits.
Children who come to swimming at say 12, but have done a variety of other sports compared to those who join and haven't participated in other sports. And the same for masters. How is the general learning curve?
That is interesting about your track times improving. I would have predicted that, so great to read it did happen. I have seen it happen to athletes I train with as well, and certainly noticed an improvement when I added cross training and dryland as well.
I am attempting to stimulate a discussion of the effects of training of all ages stages and abilities. Of looking at training, and what contributes to productive training.
Is the ability to grasp a concept easier in a person who has participated in other activites?
When you talk about a sport with great body awareness, I think of gymnasts. I think those athletes deal with a lot of agility and body awareness and conditioning. I have observed several young ladies switch from gymnastics to swimming from ages 10-12. These young ladies all turned into excellent swimmers. They have a good feel for the water, their strokes are beautiful, and they mentally are tough and they are strong. The only thing that truly holds them back with the other girls, is they are small and many good swimmers are very large. One young lady is 12 and much much smaller than my almost 11 year old and my daughter is only average. This petite swimmer is holding her own right now, but when she turns 13, I think it will be difficult. She has beautiful strokes, especially fly and I keep encouraging her to do the 200 fly, but she won't. I think her light body weight and almost perfect stroke would be an advantage in the longer events.
