The Fastest Age

Originally posted by lefty Lets regroup this discussion a little, the tangents are becoming outlandish. Ion core belief: Not swimming from age 13-19 is a hinderance to swimming development. His explanation for this hinderance is that is the age when VO2 max is developed. Connie and myself agree with Ion in that not swimming from age 13-19 is a hinderance, but we believe that the root of the hinderance has many parts of which VO2 developement max is one. I do not know were geek, Arcuni, jeff, gull or anyone else stands on the issue. So I am drawing the line in the sand: Make your opinion known here and now! Sorry, I am a couple of pages behind and just now catching up. I check a couple of times a day and there is always two or more new page each time! This is obviously a distance thread, rather than a sprint thread.:) As with Ion, Connie and Lefty, I believe that not swimming in the 13-19 age range puts an adult behind. I do believe that VO2max has some part of it. But I also believe technique (tied to muscle memory), feel for the water, understanding of racing, etc. all have a part in it. There is probably a dozen parts to the equation. Either way, it is something that as an adult starter I am aware of and work to overcome. But I don't dwell on it.;)

Originally posted by Ion Beza Sure, give me names and data. Ion, you get to go first. You are the one making wild generalizations, and need to back up your claim. You say that you have names and data... I'm calling your bluff. Keep in mind, it is not enough to show that a few triathletes match your description. I want you to show me names and data of every San Diego triathlete, and that all of them fit your descriptions. If you can't do that, you should recant. Originally posted by Ion Beza You have a miscomprehension here. Wow, what a great comeback. :rolleyes: Leaving aside the fact that you never cleared up the miscomprehension... Ion Beza claims to know how every triathlete trains triathletes -and even USMS in this forum- don't train with the five types of workouts like I do, they do mindless forever-fitness. Ion Beza says that others do not know how he trains I think you got suck into parroting USMS cliches ... without knowing my coaches, what they teach, how I train, and how I race.

Of course if one were to do a vigorous active sport (Like, say, Soccer) in their youth, wouldn't that also develop an early, overall VO2 Max? Such an advantage would completely negate anyone's argument about being a "late-starter". Granted, it's not swim-specific VO2 Max, but it certainly would develop the V)2 Max in the legs and, thus, give an advantage to any swimmer who relies heavily on their kick. Especially anyone who has the crazy notion of relying on that kick as a primary source of propulsion later in life. The exception , of course, would be if that youth in soccer was spent on the bench. Well here again I can claim advantage. My sport in High School was Marching Band (I played the harp), does that count? Of course, where I come from, Marching Band was a full contact sport. Since I started swimming at age 19, I can now once again lay claim to the title of late-bloomers who were in the marching band who do duathlons the morning of their 1,000 free at a zone meet, and thus take the title from any youth-soccer VO2 Max-advantaged late-bloomers. Now how many pages is this thread? :p

Originally posted by Ion Beza The fastest age is the age of the Olympian winners because that's where the competition peaks. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. :rolleyes: I think sparx may have been talking within the scope of Masters swimming?

Ion, are you under the misconception that the swimmers that are in the USMS Top 10 list are in there on the benefits of their age group training and not on their training now? I personally know two people on the top 10's, one man is a former Olympian and now coaches my son, the other was a former age group record holder from Hawaii who swims with my son. Both these people train very hard. They also race a lot to get good at racing. When I watch them train and watch them swim I know they have earned the right to be on the top 10. It sounds like you also train very hard, and it is frustrating to train as hard as the above and not earn that top 10 spot. But that is sport. I see it in age group all the time, some people are just better than others, period. What I feel is wonderful about this sport is you don't have to be on the top 10 list to get an accomplishment out of it. Just the fact of improving your times each year should be considered an accomplishment. If you finally lick the flip turn problem, that should be considered an accomplishment. On the flip turn thoughts, I certainly understand being faster without them as I have learned to do them recently, and they are tough. I think my biggest accomplishment in my last meet was flipping all my turns, both free and back!

Ha, I got it to page 25. Now the challenge is to get it to page 26! And the word of the day from my local High School's web page: perorate \PUR-uh-rayt\, intransitive verb: 1. To conclude or sum up a long discourse. 2. To speak or expound at length; to declaim. Anyone want to perorate this thread and end it or do we keep going?

29 pages, will this hit 30?

I believe that this: Originally posted by gull80 I thought my position was clear: Everything else being equal , VO2max (or better,%VO2max) will in most cases win a race. ... is the difference in Olympic races. I also beleive that at smaller levels of racing, like USMS, it is: "Everything else being not as much of a big deal , VO2max (or better,%VO2max) will in most cases win a race." Originally posted by dorothyrd 29 pages, will this hit 30? I am doing my part. OK?

Originally posted by aquageek ... Because, after all, if you can't swim fast, it's best to fabricate excuses rather than improve your swimming, huh? Sure. Take geek's 1,000 free, for example. Even as an age-group swimmer he hasn't learned to do it, so why ask geek for more effort since 25 yards in USMS is good enough?

You want my position? They are 1) trying to rationally summarize Ion's true position. The reason I need to do that is that his positions are so outlandish that no one believes that he is really saying them. I started out by saying that no one will be able to find a swimmer that disproves his theories, because he is a pretty good swimmer, and that he will make the categories so small that he will always be the faster swimmer. 20 pages later you should agree that I was right. Some of you thought I was slamming Ion with my extension of Lefty's post with summary 3)? I was totally serious, it *is* Ion's position, I was not being rude or jokey. I pointed out that it is very central to his self image. Ion's VO2 max is a pseudo-scientific theory to explain just what a great swimmer he is, and exists for no other reason. As such it is irrelevant, and all of you are wasting your time because you are trying to be logical when Ion is working from a fundamental assumption that you all don't accept. Thus, I have no position on VO2 max. My *hunch* is that Ion's Vo2 max is better than mine, Tall Paul's, or Lefty's, and that he has other reasons to not be in the top ten. (that is why I suggested that he get it checked.) As for the validity of VO2 max, I can swim a 50 fly, no breath at all, faster than Ion can swim a 50 free with all of his 30 or so breaths (and I am in one of those 'slow' age groups), so what does VO2 max have to explain that? What do I get for my public service in explaining Ion's position? Misunderstood because people *still* don't believe what he thinks. 2) No UofC grad would say 'UofC, UofI@CC, pretty close.' Not because Uof I@CC is a bad school, but because UofC grads are snobs. 3) copout is a slang noun, and cop out is a slang verb form. The present perfect form of cop out should be 'copping out', not 'coping out.' And, since I am having trouble coping with this thread, I am thinking of copping out of it.