Originally posted by lefty
Lets regroup this discussion a little, the tangents are becoming outlandish.
Ion core belief:
Lefty, you are reading a different Ion than I am. This is my take on Ion's core belief:
Being a fast late-bloomer (no age group, started in 28) makes you right. If you are slower than Ion for whatever reason then your arguments with Ion are pointless. If you are faster than Ion, then the fact that you are not a late bloomer means that the comparison is null and void.
This is not a comparison between someone who has been swimming since age 5, and someone who started later. (That is what you are doing, and bless you for trying to steer the discussion towards an interesting topic.)
If you swam 1 year during the ages 13-17, and only started up recently, then Ion (who has been swimming for the last 16 years) says that person has an advantage that makes comparisons unreasonable. (Unless Ion is faster, of course.)
I keep hearing about age 13-17 development window, but I would appreciate a reference. The more I think about this, and the more I read about VO2Max, the less I am willing to accept this as a fact. I want to read the source material, to decide what was really being tested.
The Proof is in the pudding so to say!
Since Ion didn't respond in regards to my last comment, I will follow Red Cross guidelines and since no answer, consent is implied.
Here is my proof to disprove Ion's statement/theory - whatever, that a person who did not swim during their optimal growth years (13 to 19 years of age) could not be a successful masters swimmer (being able to produce a top 10 USMS time) because they have an underdeveloped VO2 max. - since Ion will want proof and names I will give them, which I really prefer not to but maybe this will finally stop this VO2 max nonsense.
For the record I did not swim during the my growth years (13 to 19 yrs of age) - I swam age group for a couple of years but quit when I was 11 and didn't start swimming until later on in college when I was 20 (criteria 1 met). I have a couple of top ten times (from relays but still I had to swim/participate) (criteria 2 met, well sort of). Okay you want individual times, I have not posted a top ten times of late, so taking a little liberty since I can't find the top ten times for 86 -88 when I swam college, I'll compare my college times when I swam in my early 20's compared to the current list of top ten times from 93 to present for the 19-24 age group. There are only 2 years (96 and 2001) that I would have failed in posting a top ten time, comparing my fastest college time to the current top ten list. (my college times were:
200 free - 1:50.14
1000 free - 12:02.23
1650 free - 20:01.71
400 IM - 4:47.33
You can ask Rick Shippherd, the current Industry Hills coach about my departure from swimming when he use to coach the Rosemead Swim Team (he'll actually remember my older brother Dan more since it was 20+ years ago).
Still not good enough because I have taken some liberties, Rich Juhala is someone who fits this category completely. He took swim lessons when he was younger (7 or 8), he said the extent of his lessons was holding onto the side of the pool and kicking. He never swam age group and didn't start swimming competitively until the late 80's (in his 40's) since he wanted to do Tri's. He has posted several top ten swims (200 fly and 400 IM). Fully meets the criteria of no age group swimming yet posted a masters top ten time. Q.E.D.
In regards to triathletes, training and technique - I currently have someone who is training to qualify for Hawaii (He actually qualified and raced 2 years ago - why he wants to go back I don't know) I've been working with him for a couple of years. His swim time usually is around 1hr 5min - he will most likely be around 55 minutes this year and be better rested for the bike and run. We have not changed his training much except for the fact that his swimming has gotten faster in the last couple of months after we did some underwater videotaping and stroke analysis, he is now more efficient and relaxed and hence is swimming faster (not because of an increased V02 but better technique).
I don't have the answer why I was able to get back into the water after almost a 10 year lay off and post somewhat respectable times or how Rich has been successful in making the top ten. Mental will power, genetics, natural feel for the water or maybe plain dumb luck that the fast people opted for other events to swim rather than the events we swam.
Hopefully this has perorated (per dorothyrd) this part of the discussion in regards to VO2 max.
Jeff
Originally posted by Mary
...
Anyway, I just wanted to provide some evidence that not all tri folks are swimming for fitness.
The triathlete workouts are for fitness because like I tell them their race (say Ironman Hawaii) is a 9 hours long workout.
They don't taper for it, and they train in fitness for it.
I used to swim at UCSD.
Roch Frey and Spencer Smith go there.
Spencer Smith is a fast swimmer (1:10 intervals per 100 yards), and watching him flip turn is like watching a truck doing flip turns.
My lifetime slowest meet was the 2002 Long Course Nationals in Cleveland, when fitness -not competitiveness- hijacked UCSD.
I moved to Swim Smarter where one coach is the distance coach of the UCSD swimming varsity team, another is a 2000 U.S. Olympic Trials racer, another coached Steve Crocker (U.S.) in Sain Louis, Missouri in the 90s -Steve Crocker was #3 sprinter in the world in the 90s, behind Tom Jager (U.S.) and Matt Biondi (U.S.)-, etc..
These coaches do the swimmer -not the triathlete- program.
In the 2003 Short Course Nationals I swam my second lifetime best 100 free under them.
Originally posted by dorothyrd
... Amanda Beard was very fast in 96 and has trouble matching those times because she got a lot bigger...
Amanda Beard is the current co-world record holder in the 200 m LC ***.
Originally posted by kaelonj
...
For the record I did not swim during the my growth years (13 to 19 yrs of age) - I swam age group for a couple of years but quit when I was 11 and didn't start swimming until later on in college when I was 20 (criteria 1 met). I have a couple of top ten times
...
Jeff
We already discussed your case and I consider the above quote as a non-late bloomer.
Also the other time around, you were throwing in -from 11 to 20- water polo.
Originally posted by kaelonj
...
Still not good enough because I have taken some liberties, Rich Juhala is someone who fits this category completely. He took swim lessons when he was younger (7 or 8), he said the extent of his lessons was holding onto the side of the pool and kicking. He never swam age group and didn't start swimming competitively until the late 80's (in his 40's) since he wanted to do Tri's. He has posted several top ten swims (200 fly and 400 IM). Fully meets the criteria of no age group swimming yet posted a masters top ten time. Q.E.D.
...
Jeff
I said up until age 45.
No need to write 'QED' because you are cheating on me now.
The higher age groups have some top 10 with slower times, almost by default.
These slower times that make top 10 in the higher age groups are signs of aging -a different matter than what I discuss here- not of fast times in the entire meet.
In the 2002 Long Course Nationals the fastest NQTs for the entire meet were for the most events in men 40 to 44.
Preferably stick with men 40 to 44, because that's what I know and am talking about, or just go under 45 in any age group and I will follow you there.
Originally posted by Ion Beza
without knowing my coaches, what they teach, how I train, and how I race.
Ion, being that out race results are posted on line, it's easy to know what club you belong to and who coaches you.
.) triathletes don't roll their hips like I do
Wrong. I know a number of them that swim great. True, not all of them do, not even a majority do. You made your statement all inclusive, as if you're theirt spokesman, while the truth is, you have no authority in the area.
.) triathletes -and even USMS in this forum- don't train with the five types of workouts like I do, they do mindless forever-fitness.
What makes you think that you know how people within the USMS train??? Because of few people's social conversations in this forum? That's weak. Have a look at the workouts section of this forum and see what's recommended as a minimum.
As for my training, we have 8 focus workouts, not just five. And this is me and another 115 swimmers on my team.
Maybe that's why we have so many topo ten and all american swimmers... even in your age group.
.) triathletes -and even USMS in this forum- don't know swimming news and books like I do.
Which raises a question... why would someone sooo superior want to bother with such an inferior group. A smart man would pick and choose his battles, and know when to move on.
If this place is not up to your level, then why bother??? What's the point?
I mean, you should know that if you want to make some changes, this kind of an approach is not the way to do it. Any smart man, like you, knows this. So, what is the point to your belittling the organization that you want to swim in? Do you like being disliked? If I remember one of your posts from a week or so ago, I don't believe that is the case.
Originally posted by SWinkleblech
As for arguing about size. It may play a factor but how can my small five year old swim faster then other five and six year olds that are much bigger then her? I beleive it comes down once again to technique.
Sometimes I wonder if there isn't a body size to strength ratio that are better in some kids then the other. A smaller kid could be stronger, and at the same tyme have a lower hydrodynamic profile (assuming the two have about the same technique), and the smaller kid could be faster... less resistance.
I'm talking in very general terms here, there arte other hydeodynamic and conditioning factors would come into play... I'm not up for detailed analisys at the moment.
Originally posted by mattson
Fast Triathletes with good techniqe
Here's one very well known triathlete with awesome techniqe, that can swim circles around Ion.
Nova's Masters Swim Coach, Mike Collins.
And many other triathletes on his swim team.
Their times and tri results can be seen on the respective event results pages, it's all public record.
