The Fastest Age

Ion - have you ever thought of politics, you are pretty good at avoiding the question, or better yet let me rephrase it If there is a swimmer out there who did not swim during those optimum growth years (13 to 19 yrs of age) yet can still be considered a successful Masters swimmer (posting a top ten USMS time) then your VO2 theory/excuse is bogus. If I can't find someone who falls into this criteria then your claim is credible. I'm not talking about Olympic champions or training theories or anything else - all I am asking for is a simple yes or no on a gentlemans (gentleperson to be p.c.) agreement, either write back and accept the challenge or duck it as usual, that is how the ball is in your court or am I to assume you have agreed (from the previous deleted thread on vo2 max, I was never able to read all the posts on the day it was deleted so I might have missed something - if so my apologies). Jeff

Originally posted by lefty Two masters swimmers approximately the same age, who have been swimming master for the past 10 years. One of the swimmers swam in his/her youth. Does the youth swimmer not have an advantage? I will take the "stupid" part out of the question, I really am not interested in the personal attacks, but I must admit that I am floored that people do not understand Ion's position. Now his approach, well that is up to debate, but for the record it does not bother me because it really has no baring or place on anything. And also for the record, I don't know the answer to your question, you are adding another variable to my question and it is difficult to answer. Actually, I don't think he was adding another variable. He was just changing one of your variables. In the situation you refer to above, you have two swimmers, whom we'll call A and B. Swimmer A swam in his/her youth, and swimmer B didn't. But swimmer A has also been swimming for 10+x years, while swimmer B has been swimming for only 10 years. The trouble is that the second factor alone will give A and advantage over B. So if A is swimming faster than B, this doesn't tell us whether the first factor made any difference. To test the importance of the first factor, we would have to compare A to another swimmer, C, who had been swimming for 10+x years, but who started swimming as an adult. And we would have to insure that A and C both put in the same number of hours per week and had the same quality of coaching during the x years. Bob

Haven't read the entire thread (just last few pages) so sorry if this has been said before... Technique vs. training hard also greatly depends on the event. I've known many good sprinters that their workouts were "less than quality", and their technique is bad - but still would go low 20s. Where as I have never known a good distance swimmer that does not work their butt off and does not have good technique. For me (LOVE distance) it's a combination of always focusing on good technique - ever single stroke I take - and working my tail off in practice. When I was a fr. in highschool I was all of 5'2" 95 lbs. By no means was I big. But I did have good technique AND worked hard in practice everyday. And I could beat most seniors in the 500 (5:05 I think was best then). Yet I could never sprint well (23.8 I think was best as a fr. in highschool).

Originally posted by Ion Beza This: is another breaktrough. In the thread 'lefty!', I wrote that good thechnique in flip turn they occupy my mind to the point of slowing me down badly. To make them an asset I need thousands of them. Until then -right now- they are a liability to my speed. You've been swimming for 17 years now, you should have tens of thousands of them under your belt by now. Or have you been avoiding tackling working on them for 17 years? Let me see, you say you train 30K a week, that is 1,560,000 Yards a year, times 17 is 26,520,000, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say, if you only made a flipturn every 50 (yards or metrers) that would make 530,400 flipturns, and if you do one every 25, that would make 1,060,800 flipturns. So, lets take the lower number, 530,400 and take 10% of that, it would amount to 53,040 flipturns. So, if you only dedicated 10% of your training to honing in the flipturns, you would have had tens of thousand of them under your belt. I think you need to get past your flipturn mental block already, get over the bruised ego that can't accept that you may not be superior in something... Use your own term, step up to the plate and tackle honing in your flipturns. As you said, they're the liability to your speed, and I reallt believe that they are much greater liability to your speed then the elusive un-quantifiable VO2max. Also, very accomplished swimmer out there is capable of making a mental switch fro a swim into a flipturn at least every 50 M if not more often. Use that superior mental ability that you claim you have, and practice the flipturns. Don't just talk about it, show us. Do you swim any other strokes or just freestyle? Are you in a mental block about trying the other strokes too? You know, a lot of the other stroke drills actually help your freestyle, in a way that you can't relate to till you actually experience it.

Originally posted by Ion Beza It should be pointed out that good technique takes considerably more energy than bad technique. is another breaktrough. It's no news. I alerady said the same thing much earlier in this thread, and many times before in this forum, so have many other people.

Originally posted by kaelonj If there is a swimmer out there who did not swim during those optimum growth years (13 to 19 yrs of age) yet can still be considered a successful Masters swimmer (posting a top ten USMS time) then your VO2 theory/excuse is bogus. If I can't find someone who falls into this criteria then your claim is credible.Jeff Jeff: IF I get a 2 second head start in a race, that head start is an advantage. If Gary Hall Jr is my oponent, that doesn't nullify the fact that I had an advantage. I am sure that there are some very good swimmers (including ION) who did not swim as youths. That does not mean it is not a disadvantage.

Originally posted by lefty Jeff, this is just silly: IF I get a 2 second head start in a race, that head start is an advantage. If Gary Hall Jr is my oponent, that doesn't nullify the fact that I had an advantage. I am sure that there are some very good swimmers (including ION) who did not swim as youths. That does not mean it is not a disadvantage. Um, lefty, noone is arguing against starting late most likely being a disadvantage You can surely make that out, can't you? People are disagreeing as to whether it's a Vo2max disadvantage, Conditioning disadvantage, technique disadvantage, lifestyle disadvantage, or a combination of factors. Most people are disagreeing with Ions emphasis on VO2Max being the key disadvantage. It probably has some small impact which can not be quantified, but I haven't seen anything in the arguments taht anyone has presented to make me believe that VO2Max conditioning, or lack thereof is THE major factor. What i do see all around me that the major factors seem to be: - Technique - Mental attitude - Physical conditioning - Training quality and quantity - Aging of the human body over the years - Talent and feel for the water - Genetics and body style And in that order too. As for VO2Max, I don't think it even belongs on a list of major factors, but that it's a mix between genetics and physical conditioning. No more significant than having size 13 feet may give an advantage over size 11 feet in kicking. Then again, size 13's with inflexible ankles wouldn't doyou any good, just like great VO2Max with bad overall technique would not do you any good.

Lefty, I am not disagreeing with you or Ion having a disadvantage because of his late start in swimming. What I am disagreeing with is his theory that his limitations are based upon his limited VO2 because he did not swim as a youth during the optimal growth years to develop his swim specific VO2. I believe Ion's short comings are from technique. He is demonstarting a common mistake in swimming by triathletes (sorry, no offense to triathletes) and that is to get in and pound away without thinking about what they are doing. He even mentioned that he knows his flip turns are a liability, yet he won't spend time working on them because he would rather pound away. This makes about as much sense as me going out onto the golf course and hacking at the ball and expecting to make the PGA tour. Most people would agree that it would be prudent to learn what different clubs are for and maybe learn how to grip and swing the club properly so I can at least make the ball somewhat straight. Tiger Woods proved this a couple years ago when he was preparing to defend his title, people were doubting him saying he had lost his touch because he wasn't winning and blowing the other players away. Not true what Tiger was doing was honing his skills and shots to play the type of game he was going to need to defend his title. In essence he used the tournaments as practice to prepare for the big event (sacrificed short term gains for a big long term gain). Lastly in regards to VO2 max lots of successful athletes didn't necessarily have the biggest VO2 on the block Frank Shorter had a VO2 of around 71 which is okay for a marathon runner, but not necessarily one you would expect from a champion like him, so go figure.

Originally posted by swimr4life What's up Doc?...sorry, I couldn't resist!;) I have to respectfully disagree with you. I think technique is EXTREMELY important to sprinters. You have much less room for error on a 50 or 100 yd swim than you do on a 500 or mile! To be competitive, your start,turn and stroke have to be close to perfect. I am a sprinter and I work very hard at practice. We are all blessed with different abilities (sprint or distance), it doesn't mean that one is better than the other. I also think that good technique takes much less energy than bad technique. Watch an experienced swimmer with good technique versus a beginning swimmer who slaps and fights the water. The new swimmer with bad technique works themselves to death but is not as efficient as the experienced swimmer who has perfected their technique through practice. This is where swimmers get the advantage, it takes MUCH less energy to swim with good technique than with bad. That is why it's so important to do drills and technique work every day. I agree that technique is important regardless of what the event is. My point was I have seen many good sprinters with terrible technique. Yet I have never seen a good distance swimmer with terrible technique. A sprinter can be fast and get away with bad technique (in the sense of using more energy) because their race is short. While a distance swimmer (at least none that I have known) will not be fast with bad tecnique because they will be tired long before the race is over.

Originally posted by Conniekat8 Um, lefty, noone is arguing against starting late most likely being a disadvantage You can surely make that out, can't you? Why would you write that connie? Do you always insult people to make your point. Who are you to question my intelligence? You're rude.