The Fastest Age

Originally posted by Paul Smith ...Swimming is a beautiful thing, much of that beauty has little to do with speed or fitness but rather with how you interact with water. My biggest thrill is simple gliding, whether thats off a turn, a start, or on a dive at 100 feet. Find that "feel/balance" and you'll find a whole new experience in the sport you love so much! Great comment Paul. I agree completely. Gliding off of the wall, underwater is an awesome feeling that I don't get tired of. Especially breaststroke when you start to slow down and then pull underwater and zoooom!:D

Ion loves to to compare himself to Paul Smith that swam as a child. There another swimmer that swam as a child on these boards that is not much faster than Ion, Matt S. I think Paul Smith stated at one time Ion and Matt swam freestyle at the same speed. This disapproves some of Ion theories. That swimming as a kid gives such an advantage. Those that have the advantage big time were ex-national level swimmers such as Paul Smith not an average swimmer that got a AAA time in freestyle or breaststroke.

Originally posted by mattson ... anchored verb Hold; To hold fast by or as if by an anchor For an observer on the pool deck, watching an efficient swimmer (Olympic or otherwise), the hand exits the water at about the same place it goes in. ... That's where it is metaphoric: "...For an observer on the pool deck, watching an efficient swimmer (Olympic or otherwise), the hand exits the water at about the same place it goes in..." because: for the swimmer (not for the passive observer but for the active swimmer) there is no holding anchor-like in order to have the hand exiting "...the water at about the same place it goes in..." but there is pulling the body thru water or crawling.

Originally posted by Ion Beza how many U.S. Olympic Trials winners did you get so far who started swimming in their late 20s? ? And you think that this is only because of VO2Max? That the aging body and lack of years of technique is not a much more significant reason for no olympians that startes swimming in their late 20's? Even most olympians retire and slow down slightly by their late 20's and early 30's, and it's not because of the lack of VO2Max development in their youth. It's because the age starts taking the toll on the body. this is where I have a real problem wioth your theories, you keep comparing apples and oranges to prove that lettuce is not a fruit. Your logic just doesn't add up. Much like you attempt to compare your results of 17 years of swimming with my results after not even a full year of swimming. Comparing things that can't be compared objectively... all the time. You're a programmer, you should understand what I mean... your if-then loops are misconnected.

Gee Ion, You have completely ducked or ignored my challenge - so does this mean you don't like yourself. Several times I have commented that my belief that technique plays an important part of being a successful swimmer. We can debate back and forth about the disadvantages of a late starter in swimming, using your empiracal data that no late 20's starting swimmer has won an olympic medal (for that matter I would be pretty positive that almost every Olympic medal winner started their sport prior to their 20's, so your data really doesn't prove anything except to be an Olympic medal contender you need years of training - my belief is years to hone your technique not build your VO2 max). The challenge I presented was for me to find a succesful Master swimmer (meaning someone who has made a top ten USMS time) who did not swim during their premium growth year (13 to 19) for VO2 max. If I could find such, then this would prove that your VO2 max handicap is a lame excuse, if I couldn't find such then I would have to give you credit your claim is true. Once again the ball is in your court. You discount everyone's claim of these invisible late starters, the burden is on me to prove it - yet you balk because maybe you realize your claim is bogus. In regards to this: 'from what I read coming off U.S. Swimming sources, it is conditioning that drives technique, not vice-versa' Taking a little liberty to this - I can swim with poor technique as hard as I want, I will get fitter but my technique will not improve unless I focus on technique - but I can work on technique and still see benefits (becoming fitter) from my efforts of working on my technique. Ion, when you are done coping out and ducking the challenge let me know. Jeff

Originally posted by Ion Beza how high one who started swimming in late 20s ranks in USMS in men 40 to 44, say last year? And how many of the late starters are in this age group, total? How many train in a seruious manner, that could even put them close to the USMS top 10 rankings? I think you'll find that this number is extremely low as well. Did you ever look at the general statistics of USMS, the number of people who started swimming later in life is pretty low. People who start late, and have the inclination to even try competing at a high level are very few and far in between. It's a game of odds, even with those that are serious, whether their training is proper, will they get injutred or not, are they top swimmer potential to even begin with. So, the fact that there may be none in the USMS Top 10 really includes so many other factors that it really offers nothing to substantiate your VO2Max development deficiency theory.

Originally posted by Ion Beza That's where it is metaphoric: "...For an observer on the pool deck, watching an efficient swimmer (Olympic or otherwise), the hand exits the water at about the same place it goes in..." because: for the swimmer (not for the passive observer but for the active swimmer) there is no holding anchor-like in order to have the hand exiting "...the water at about the same place it goes in..." but there is pulling the body thru water or crawling. Challenging the semantics and minutia is often a strategy employed to distract from having to answer the original question and reveal... un-qualifications.

Originally posted by Ion Beza At my level, I despise -to their face- people who don't have the character to do things with the goal of improvement when they resort to cop out excuses and duck challenges in what they say that they do; To me, your constant bellyaching about the lack of VO2Max, and refusal to consider other suggestions smells of a major cop-out. Didn't you say you were athletic as a young man already, wouldn't that have give you some VO2Max development that would be at the higher level than someone who wasn't??? And, on a psych side, people tend to despise in others taht which they despise in themselves first and most. It's a pretty common emotional defense mechanisam, and even though on surface it makes you feel superior for a fleeting moment, it actually shows emotional inferiority. The fact that you get so defensive when people make certain suggestion actually goes in support of what I just said. Here is some good reading for you: userwww.sfsu.edu/.../ read up on this one especially: In particular, displaced aggression. I think you'll see a lot of things taht you can relate to. And this one: userwww.sfsu.edu/.../114.htm about defense mechanisams and their functional and dysfunctional applications.

Originally posted by kaelonj The challenge I presented was for me to find a succesful Master swimmer (meaning someone who has made a top ten USMS time) who did not swim during their premium growth year (13 to 19) for VO2 max. If I could find such, then this would prove that your VO2 max handicap is a lame excuse, if I couldn't find such then I would have to give you credit your claim is true. Once again the ball is in your court. You discount everyone's claim of these invisible late starters, the burden is on me to prove it - yet you balk because maybe you realize your claim is bogus. Jeff Um, I already made it to one of the top 10 lists ;) and I have a patch to prove it I know, I know, it was just a relay... But still, that was in my very first meet, just after 3 weeks of swimming, at the age of 34. So there goes Ion's theory down the toilet. When you put it within the parameters that he specified (or neglected to consider) I know, I know, eventhough noone verbalized it precisely, you guys are talking about individual placements. Anyway, my point here is, there is much discussion with Ion's theories that are very loosely and un-precisely postulated, and leave a lot to interpretation and twisting of the interpretations into some creative conclusions. This is also in contradiction with his nitpicking the opposing arguments, right down to the level of spelling. He uses one criteria for postulating his own theories, and another for discounting opposing arguments. Former being much more liberal than the latter. Then Ion has the audacity to claim that he is employing critical thinking and scientific reasoning??? BAH! The fact that he uses fancy words on occasion, such as empirical and scientific etc... does not mean that there is substance behind them. Just look at the big picture and the behavior. They;re in contradiction. If you want to know what a person really thinks and says, pay less attention to the words, more attention to actions, reactions, behaviors and demeanor. Words alone are very decieving.

Originally posted by Ion Beza As for the front quadrant in Total Immersion, read in page 47: "...One hand doesn't start until the other one's nearly back...". You got your near 0 degrees apart, righ here. No you don't! What it says (on page 47) is "begin stroking the right just as the left returns to the front quadrant". The boundary of the front quadrant, as you'll see if you look at the diagram on page 46, is a vertical line running through the shoulder. So in Total Immersion swimming, the right hand starts stroking just after the left hand passes the shoulder during its recovery. That means that the arms are nearly 90 degrees apart. In 'Swimming Dynamics' by Colwin in page 176, it reads: "...When Kieren sprints (i.e.: Kieren Perkins (Aus.), the second fastest 1500 freestyler in history) ... he retards his timing by bringing the pulling hand further back before the other hand enters. When his hand enters, his left hand will be level with his shoulder..." Or, to phrase it differently, when his right hand enters the front quadrant, his left hand is just leaving it. That is front quadrant swimming as defined on page 47 of Total Immersion: "FQS swimming means always keeping one or the other of your hands in that front quadrant."