Something I have never seen

Yes. I used to do this in high school, xxx years ago. In fact the new rules help greatly. Look at www.breaststroke.info/BRST9.htm From 1998, "The amazing thing is this greatly increases the chance someone will do a FLIP turn in a breaststroke race. Up until the early 60's we had to touch the wall on the freestyle turn. As a young breaststroker I practiced breaststroke flip turns, but then our head could not go underwater, and we had to touch evenly. Come on coaches, lets see who will do the first legal breaststroke flip turn in competition. Boy, I love to tweek the rule makers. Reminds me of the days when they let me tweek them in the 200 fly, kicking the middle 100 all breaststroke kick with NO arm pull. I was so refreshed, I was able to sprint home doing the butterfly correctly. " I would love to see a video of her turn. I applaud the stroke and turn judges, they know the rules.

I must be visualizing this wrong... if you touch with both hands aren't you way to close to the wall to do a freestyle flip turn?

Larry Day flipped all three turns back in 1969 at the Michigan High School State Meet while winning the 100 fly. I assumed he did this also while swimming at the University of Michigan. Larry has long arms to help him achieve this... But breaststroke is another story. Like Wayne, I'd love to see that too.

yes flip turns after both hands touching seem like a good head smack in the wall followed by some deep plunging whilst watching as you droop to last position...is it really not legal to flip turn without touching both hands..if so then free style should incorporate a one hand touch before their flip turn to even up stroke speed variation...!!!what ...this is too intillectual for me this time o night!!!!!

Originally posted by laineybug I must be visualizing this wrong... if you touch with both hands aren't you way to close to the wall to do a freestyle flip turn? Not if you have nine foot gorilla arms.

I watched that race last night on my TiVo. What intrigued me... I went back and watched the turn frame-by-frame... I'm not convinced that her right hand actually touched the wall. But it was a long camera angle. -Rick

seltzer is correct that you can get great pushoffs from flipping the turns. The only reason Mike Barrowman did not flip his turns is the rules did not allow for this. Since 1998 small nuances in the rules allow for this flip. I did it in high school in the 60's, of course I was quite skinney then. It would be nice to have long arms, not my case. I always predicted women could do this as they are more flexible. College meets, even championship meets are poorly officiated, they are allowed to get away with subtle rule violations, that Masters and USA swimming would not let you get away with. I believe the lady probably did touch with both hands, just she should have had one hand lower than the other to facillatate the flip. Also it is helpfull to touch way below the waters surface, to help the flip. Nothing I like better is a great thread, esp. if it is about breaststroke :D

Originally posted by osterber I watched that race last night on my TiVo. What intrigued me... I went back and watched the turn frame-by-frame... I'm not convinced that her right hand actually touched the wall. But it was a long camera angle. -Rick Rick, I believe that there was a ref standing right over her. (and) I don't see how she would have any advantage of having her body tilted one way or the other. Anyhow, I plan on doing this turn at a meet later this month, in the 50 fly. I'll bring a copy of the rule book just to be safe.

Since the turns are exactly alike, butterflyers will gain as much as breaststrokers. Most butterflyers are taller, so they may have longer arms and able to flip their turns. Also butterfly can take advantage of the deeper underwater dolphins after the turns. I am surprised this is just now starting to develope, I predicted this back in 1998:p USMS 101.2 BREASTSROKE .2 Stroke - From the beginning of the first arm stroke after the start and after each turn, the body shall be kept on the *** and both shoulders shall be in line with the water surface. The arms shall move simultaneously and in the same horizontal plane without any alternating movement. … .4 Turns - At each turn, the touch shall be made with both hands simultaneously at, above, or below the water surface, and the shoulders shall be in line with the water surface. The head may be submerged after the last arm pull prior to the touch, provided it breaks the surface of the water at some point during any part of the last complete or incomplete stroke cycle preceding the touch. Once a touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner desired. The shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the form prescribed in .2 must be attained from the beginning of the first arm stroke. How does this affect the breaststroke turn? Well I have been telling everyone for the last couple of years that they could shave a tenth off each turn by allowing one hand to touch lower than the other. Well, make that .2 to .3 seconds on EACH turn. Masters experimented with dipping the shoulder at the turn, it is MUCH faster. I recommend twisting the shoulders at the turn, and having the hands about 10 inches apart, one over the other. The way you turn to best, should be the lower hand. I still recommend the Moffat turn, *** to back, twisting over to *** again. This rule remains: The shoulders must be at or past the VERTICAL toward the *** when the swimmer leaves the wall and the form prescribed in .2 must be attained from the beginning of the first arm stroke. I call this the Kristine Quance rule because she so blantly disregarded this rule in the 1996 Olympic Trials. She did not turn past the vertical until her feet were past the "T" on the underwater line. There is no excuse for not practicing correctly EVERY workout! The amazing thing is this greatly increases the chance someone will do a FLIP turn in a breaststroke race. Up until the early 60's we had to touch the wall on the freestyle turn. As a young breaststroker I practiced breaststroke flip turns, but then our head could not go underwater, and we had to touch evenly. Come on coaches, lets see who will do the first legal breaststroke flip turn in competition. Boy, I love to tweek the rule makers. Reminds me of the days when they let me tweek them in the 200 fly, kicking the middle 100 all breaststroke kick with NO arm pull. I was so refreshed, I was able to sprint home doing the butterfly correctly.

The turns that I've seen used by the faster swimmers is either one hand lower OR a brush turn where the swimmer rapidly brushes the wall with one hand thereby dipping the shoulder. In both cases, obviously, the lower hand or "brushed" hand is left for left rotation and right for right rotation. I think the brush touch is the fastest for fly/breaststroker and I've seen some swimmers use it when touching hands at the same time but in different planes. It helps swimmer rotate their bodies earlier in the turn but does raise the risk of a DQ since it can seem "odd" to less experienced stroke/turn judges who might think the touch is non-simultaneous.