When a new masters swimmer asked on a different thread for a meters to yard conversion utility, I referred her to the following site:
www.swiminfo.com/.../conversions.asp
Unfortunately, as another poster quickly pointed out, this site will soon be available only to those who pay for it.
I am wondering if someone with some computer savvy could recreate this very useful utility for us masters, then post it in an area of the USMS web site where we could access it for free.
This same area could also include some other useful tools for swimmers. There is, for example, a fun (though perhaps somewhat suspect) "future times predictor" for aging swimmers at:
http://n3times.com/swimtimes/
In addition, my friend and teammate Bill White wrote an Excel spreadsheet (so far not posted on the web) that allows you to easily calculate your 100 pace for distance swims. You can either input the total distance and total time and it will give you your average 100; or you can input the average 100 you hope to swim and the total distance, and it will crank out what your overall time will be if you can hold that pace.
Anyhow, I propose the USMS web site add a new section called something like "Swimmers Tool Box" that collects, in one place, all these useful and/or just fun-to-play-around-with utilities we can come up with. I know many of the posters here are brilliant amateur mathematicians, who enjoy inventing these things; maybe we could even have an annual award for whatever new calculator we users vote as the most interesting! Kind of like a Touring Prize (is that the right name) for swimming math esoterica!
Former Member
Well, I agree that there are other factors than age. Also, our qualifying times are a good measure. Its base upon 10 percent slower than the 10th fastest person in the age group. In 50 yard Breaststroke, 40-44 year old women are at 37.39 and at 45-49 are at 39.57 and a 50-54 at 42.04. Some of it is related to the fact that those in the 50-54 age group are probably not as likely to swim pre-masters as the 40-44. Some of it is most likely age. There is not much difference from women's 50 yard *** from age 19 to 44. The differances becomes greater in each age group from 45 and above.
That's too bad. Bill is a friend and I've never seen him behave like that even when he's had some bad swims. Everyone has bad moments. Hopefully everyone will forgive, move on and we can enjoy the competition.
That 200 back was healthy for all of us I think. I was/am thrilled to have been part of it.
Originally posted by jim thornton
Actually, the story I heard was that Wieslaw Musial tried to cordially shake the hands of all the top competitors in this 200 back before the swim. Most did so, but Bill Specht declined to. After Wieslaw won the race, he turned and again shook the hands of you and Scott, and again tried to shake hands with Bill Specht, who turned away, climbed out of the pool, and walked off. So Wieslaw, a little peeved at this point, chased him down on deck and was reported to utter, "What took you so long?" I heard this anecdote from a Canadian teammate of Wieslaw's. I'm pretty sure it's true. I gotta say I admire great swimmers, and I can understand disappointment when you don't perform as well as you hope. But I don't get this kind of thing.
I don't think that it is appropriate to offer to shake someone's hand BEFORE a race. Many people view the few minutes before a race as their time to prepare and concentrate (particularily while at the starting blocks). This should not be a revelation to anyone. A gentle "Good Luck" can be in order, but don't go out of your way to get the person's attention.
Regardless, if we measured character by someone's worst actions then I would have to be labled a lieing cheating scumbag, and I certainly don't want to carry that around.
Regarding the oringinal question and the response by Phil:
1) Stats never prove anything. The only suggest.
2) Keeping Point 1 in mind, I never said that the 6 second difference in mean between age 40-44 and 45-49 was attributed to age. There are litterally billions of variables at work here. That is not to say that the mean is not factual, because it is.
3) Here is how I interpret the stat: If you choose to work hard durring your 40's and you add less than 6 seconds to your 200 back time durring that period then you are doing better than your competitors as a whole.
An earlier question was whether we could replicate the SwimInfo calculator for converting times between SCY, SCM and LCM. Clearly yes, Swiminfo even posted on their web site the ratios they used to construct the calculator (by event, gender and of course the size of the pool), so you could fat-finger it with a calculator if you wanted.
The more interesting question is what data did they use to get those ratios, and is it valid? Someone else asked whether a calculator based on data from older, Masters swimmers (instead of college kids) would be more accurate for us. These are all terrific questions to ask, and I think they illustrate the inescapable subjective fudge-factor of any calculator. If you doubt me, search the web and find several calculators available of various reputable swimming web sites. Plug in a time, and watch them generate different results for the same conversion. Not wildly different, but not trivial either. Which one feels about right for you? I actually like the SwimInfo, NCAA based calculator because it seems about right for my times. However, I question whether a tool built with data from folks who tend to be a whole lot faster than I am is the best way to go. I have a sense they may make up for that by simply having a relatively larger pool of data than the other tools, but I don't know this for a fact.
Tools are great; tools are fun. Some clearly have more thought put into them than others. But, none of them have the mathematical validity of 2.54 cm = 1 inch. Some of the tools, like the age adjusted calculator (1:05 at 19 is comparable to 1:11 at 43), are purely for bar-stool debates. Clearly a lot of fun, but clearly not scientific either.
Hey, if someone wants to put that together and make it available on this site, I think that would be a nice feature and I would thank them for their effort.
Matt
Hey folks, welcome to Cheers (sometimes of the Bronx variety).
Pull up a bar stool and let me pour you a Sammy.
Is everyone good so far?
OK, here is why the so called Finnish formula is only scientific enough for the present friendly confines, and will not be making an appearance in Cambridge any time soon.
What are we measuring? Yeah, sure, we all think we're measuring the swimming potential of people in the 20's versus their 40s versus their 60s. But, who exactly, and under what conditions? Most of the formulas I have heard explained to me are measuring TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS of people at the same time. Yes, the numbers are interesting at some level, but if you compare times for people who are in their 20's today versus those who are in their 40's today, are you really measuring anything more that the average ability of swimmers who choose to compete at their respective ages? There are so many more factors that can influence that than the supposed effects of aging on similar (but by definition, different) individuals. Availability of teams and pool facilities, the incentive to compete (college scholarship versus the awe and admiration of...dozens, maybe a few hundred for a Masters World Record), competing demands on one's time, the number of people in the general population of a certain age (I strongly believe in the baby-boom/Mark Spitz generation being like a demographic snake that swallowed an elephant, and its effects on Top Ten and NQT times), etc. etc. If you want to make more valid measurements, you ought to compare the times of each individual for his/her 20's, 40's and 60's, and then see what the average drop-off is. I have not heard anyone talking about a project like that.
Moreover, even if you go to the trouble measuring individuals as they age, what effects to you control for? If I achieve a certain time at 21 while working out for about 15 hours per week, can/should it be compared to a time I achieve at 41 when I can only manage about 4 hours per week? As Ion used to point out with such tiresome frequency, what is the effect of conditioning as a teenage swimmer vs. those who pick up the sport in their 20's? And, to what extent do you adjust for improved stroke mechanics (or just plain changes to the backstroke and breastroke rules)? More important, SHOULD you try to factor out all this stuff? If we factor out all the many ways I am a wiser and more cunning swimmer than when I was 21, it becomes a measure of how hard I am working now compared to 21. HEY! I don't need a scientific formula to tell me I used to work a heck of a lot harder when I was younger!
So Jim, I think this stuff should be be viewed as fun not science. Feel free to employ it to "hear de lamentations of der vomen," but do not be surprised if you hear the lamentations (and the derision and see the eye-rolling) of your friends, family and teammates if you bring this up too often.
Can I get anyone else another beer?
Matt
The point is that there is not much scientific data on the capabilities of Masters athletes (at least that I'm aware of). I think it would be of more than passing interest, since the subject involves the aging process, maybe even life expectancy. Sounds like a good doctoral thesis to me. From a practical standpoint, it would be nice to know how we could train more efficiently and what our expectations should be. Swimming is somewhat unique in that the effects of gravity are minimized.
I was in 2nd. Caught me at the very end.
Originally posted by Frank Thompson
I remember Scott Shake as one of swimmers but I don't remember the others. Bill Spect received a loud roar from the crowd when he came back. That showed me the kind of competitor Bill really is. When the chips are down he came through.
Well, we are all effective by aging and also by body changes,some of us put on a lot of weight since childhood. A few can do best times in freestyle at 50 years old. Others can swim between 2 to 5 seconds slower than high school or college, While others swim 10 plus seconds slower in their mid to late 40's. Everyone is different and just because your not swimming like best times in you middle years doesn't mean you have lost everything. I can even swim a 200 yard fly in workouts, I don't go that fast over a mintue slower than I did at 18 years old..
