Tools for Swimmers: a modest proposal for USMS

You're thinking of Wieslaw Musial. He's from Poland and living in Canada now. He won the 200 in Cleveland as well. This year I lead for about 195 meters before he chased me down. I just barely held off Scott Shake who might have won the whole thing with another meter. Scotts last 50 was outstanding. Bill Specht finished fourth. It was one of the best races I've been in regardless of age. I've been in many races with Scott and Bill and can't recall anyone refusing to shake hands or anything like that. Hope it wasn't me. Originally posted by jim thornton I just noticed that Phil and I are tied for exactly 190 posts. So I am adding this one to go up slightly in the posting competition. Fritz Lehman, are you the fellow originally from Poland who won the 200 back last summer? If you are, congratulations once more on a superb performance. Even if you aren't who I'm think of, congratulations! It's nice to know that at least in this one event, the winner was not a fellow who has a swimming suit named after him (and who reportedly refused to shake the hand of the winner either before or after the race.)

Mea culpa. I feel like a jerk for my reportage here. Sorry. You guys are both correct: none of us would look good if judged by our least diplomatic moments. Adding further reason for legitimate self-crimination: I am not 100 percent certain the anecdote is 100 percent true (though there's probably some kernel of truth to it.) Anyhow, my apologies for gossip mongering: it was definitely small minded of me. Also, in terms of Lefty's suggestion regarding time changes between the age group. This is precisely why I originally started the thread on the old forum about "equivalent times." Basically, I think everyone eventually reaches a point (highly individualized, I concede) where his or her swimming times no longer improve with advancing age. Sometimes, it's a major victory if you can just hold onto things for a long plateau period; sometimes, it's even a greater victory if you can simply slow the rate of decline. That's what I was hoping to find: a way to feel like you're making relative progress over the years--so that, say, a 2:01 in the 200 free at age 65 causes you equal if not more celebration than a 1:55 at age 49. I realize the Finnish formula et al is hardly the most scientific measure of this in the world. But I must also say: I've had a lot of fun in recent years when I have been able to beat my youngers in a race, then add, "And if you consider the Finnish formula as well, I absolutely trounced you!" All in good, spirit-crushing, "hear the lamentations of der vomen" style fun!

Lefty, I agree that before a race many people view the few minutes as their time to prepare and concentrate, particulary while at the starting blocks and don't like people who go out of there way to get the person's attention. I will take this one step further. In the old days of AAU swimming back in the late 60's and early 70's there was an informal rule that we use to refer to as the "Gag" rule. What that rule was is that you did not speak, communicate, or socialize with your competitors during the course of the meet. That included before a race and after a race. At the conclusion of the meet you shook hands and communicated with your competitors or the opposing team. Many professional teams did that then and still do today. When I began masters swimming over 20 years ago I noticed that changed somewhat in that people socialized a lot more during the competion and maybe we were to serious back then. One thing I learned is that different people do different things regarding this and as a swimmer and a coach you have to respect that. I was brought up on the "Gag" rule and would not even think of talking to swimmers during a meet. A lot of that had to do with swimming Psych, meaning the psych up and psych out are so important that we believed the mental part far outweighs the physical in competition. Now I realize that we are masters swimmers and this is not the NCAA or the Olympics but some people have habits and they stick with those habits for a lifetime and some change as they get older. I happen to know Bill Specht and I have the utmost respect for him. I saw him at the Y Nationals and the two USMS championships last year and talked to him and he is really a nice guy and this was after the days competion. I knew his old coach Bill Farley at Princeton who swam for the University of Michigan for Gus Stager, one of the great coaches of our time. Bill Farley got 4th in the 1500 at the 1964 Olympics and was kind of a role model for young swimmers at the time. I have observed Bill at USMS Nationals and noticed that he is one of the most focused swimmers I have ever seen in masters swimming. At Rutgers he was at the warm up pool every day when they opened at 6:00 regardless if he was swimming early in the day. He handles adversity extemely well. A case in point was at the 1999 Long Course Nationals in Minneapolis. I remember watching his 50 and 200 Back and noticed that the 2nd place finishers almost caught him to the wall. However in the Fly races he was winning rather easily, winning the 100 by almost 4 seconds. Then came the 200 Fly and a possible World Record. I remember the announcer at the meet saying the USMS Swimmer of the Year is on record pace to shatter the record. At the 150 he was 4 seconds ahead of the 2nd place finisher. What happened on the last 50 is the classic story of what happens to people that take out the 200 fly to fast. Everyone at the meet that day knew about that race and I saw a lot of people giving there condolences after the race was over. He had maybe 10 to 15 minutes to get ready for the next event which was the 100 back. It was the last event before the relay on Sunday at the end of the meet. I remember everyone watching to see if he could come back from this adversity earlier. He was in 4th place at the 75 meter mark but managed to sprint the last 25 and win by the slimist of margins against 4 really good compeitors all within a second of each other. I remember Scott Shake as one of swimmers but I don't remember the others. Bill Spect received a loud roar from the crowd when he came back. That showed me the kind of competitor Bill really is. When the chips are down he came through.

Excellent post, Frank. Thanks for giving another--arguably more valid--side. I've only known you as a masters swimmer, not during the collegiate days. But I have to say: you are such a kind hearted and friendly guy that it's hard to think of you ever putting on a malevolent game face and not talking to your competitors! In terms of the ongoing debate between Lefty and Phil, I would argue that the chief value of the Finnish formula calculator is to settle such a question, on average, for different ages. Example: given my last year's 200 free time of 1:55.48 at age 50, it predicts I will be swimming about 6 seconds slower by age 56. (I hope not to give up this much, but time will tell.) If you go back in time, so to speak, it also predicts I could have/should have done a 1:46 at age 25 (actually, I never came close--so here, I agree, the calculator fails big time). However, if you assume the 1:46 is correct, it says I would not decline to a 1:52 (i.e, add 6 seconds) for the next 20 years or so, that is, till I turned 45 or 46. That's where I think this thing does have some validity: it suggests that declines in performance are very slight in the younger ages, and only start to really accelerate noticeably after 50 or so. By age 75, the change is about 5 seconds a year! Anyhow, according to the calculator, the difference in the 200 free, again based on my time, between age 45 and 50 is 3.38 seconds. The difference between 40 and 45 is even less: 3.36 seconds. So, if I had to bet, I would argue the difference in truly elite 200 backstrokers would NOT be 6 seconds, but rather less than 4 seconds, from 40 to 45. Whoever suggested earlier that this calculator is best reserved for the bar stool probably had it right. I'm thirsty! Perhaps after tonight's swim practice, we should all reconvene at this forum for a virtual cocktail party?

Perhaps a calculator that allows one to indicate whether they have awesome turns, average turns or molasses turns, THEN calculate - this will make a appreciable difference from swimmer to swimmer on short-to-long course (and vice versa) conversions.

lefty said 3) Here is how I interpret the stat: If you choose to work hard durring your 40's and you add less than 6 seconds to your 200 back time durring that period then you are doing better than your competitors as a whole. Which I claim is how *not* to interpret it. The reason the cohort of 45 - 49 was six seconds slower than the 40 - 44 cohort was not because of age or work or illness or whatever happens between those two ages, but because the 40 - 44 cohort is intrinsically faster than the older one, and will remain so. In other words, I do not believe that the people we are talking about will get 6 seconds slower, on average. On your other post, I agree completely about not judging people by their worst actions. More specifically, I have found the person in question the ultimate gentleman, and his behavior that I observed after the race, including conversation, is not consistent with the negative description given above.

Phil: Your assertion that Fritz and his band of brothers are just plain faster than his counter parts makes no difference in generational study because they contributed to both groups (40-44 and 45-49) of the study. I agree, if you maintain training, you probably will not get 6 seconds slower. That is the point. But do you disagree with the notion that not everyone WILL maintain there training? Some will and some won't. And what will happen? The average time gain will probably be around 6 seconds.

Actually, the story I heard was that Wieslaw Musial tried to cordially shake the hands of all the top competitors in this 200 back before the swim. Most did so, but Bill Specht declined to. After Wieslaw won the race, he turned and again shook the hands of you and Scott, and again tried to shake hands with Bill Specht, who turned away, climbed out of the pool, and walked off. So Wieslaw, a little peeved at this point, chased him down on deck and was reported to utter, "What took you so long?" I heard this anecdote from a Canadian teammate of Wieslaw's. I'm pretty sure it's true. I gotta say I admire great swimmers, and I can understand disappointment when you don't perform as well as you hope. But I don't get this kind of thing.

I don't see how they could have contributed to both, since they just moved into the older age group this year. I don't see how you can do it fairly unless the data is for 10 years, at least. Some people train less, some more, some ex-swimmers start to swim again, some quit, I would argue the net effect is small, not nearly 6 seconds.

I'll buy the first round.