This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by valhallan
Ion,
I guess this topic has been kicked around the board maybe a few times too many.
...
Val.
It has.
In a maze of data, with interests and beliefs at stake, I am sorting out what to think and pursue.
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
...
This article points out that traiing with paddles tedn to make us swim with arms more in opposition.
...
"...training with paddles tends to make us swim with arms more in opposition.", clicks as a 'yes' in my recollection.
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
...
(www.education.ed.ac.uk/.../ms.html)
...
This recent article defines the freestyle swimming phases, as:
"...phase A: entry and catch of the hand into the water; phase B: pull; phase C: push; phase D: recovery).".
There is a material 'push' of the water.
The 'push' is considered to be in the article, a 'propulsive' phase of swimming, unlike this description in a past thread which I characterized then as being 'poetry', not real and inspired by the myth 'They're Not Hands Anymore: They're Anchors' (in page 60 of the book Total Immersion):
...
The short version is to scull with your hands to "anchor" them in the water. You then pull your body past your hands, instead of pushing water back. (It may not feel like this from your perspective, but it can be seen from the deck by a coach.)
...
Also this quote from a past thread:
...
Well, research showed that stroke rate was uncorrelated with speed. (It is highly correlated with stroke length.) Research also showed that elite swimmers were pushing back *less* water than ordinary swimmers.
...
is in contradiction with the article stating:
"These swimmers reduced the non-propulsive phases (A+D) and relatively increased the propulsive phases of pull and push (B+C)."
because reducing the non-propulsive phases, including reducing the pause advocated in Total Immersion, that's increasing the Stroke Rate (or Cadence), while increasing the pushing back of the water does push back more (not less) "...water than ordinary swimmers.".
In my last post, when Erik Vendt (US), age 21 in 2002, starts his 400 meters IM with the formidable 'Tempo' of 51.1 cycles per minute (think of the heart rate maintained for the entire duration of the race at over 210 beats per minute, think swimming VO2Max fueling oxygen into triceps, lats and legs), 'Tempo' way above some of his cruising 'Tempo' in training, and ends the 400 meters IM in 4:11.27 -breaking the world record of 4:11.79 by Tom Dolan (US)-, then Vendt has a starting 'Tempo' that he could not match with less physical conditioning from gruelling training, and he could not match after aging to say late 20s.
This tells me: train for the peak Cadence, because it is fragile and it does decline quickly.
Originally posted by valhallan
Ion,
I guess this topic has been kicked around the board maybe a few times too many.
...
Val.
It has.
In a maze of data, with interests and beliefs at stake, I am sorting out what to think and pursue.
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
...
This article points out that traiing with paddles tedn to make us swim with arms more in opposition.
...
"...training with paddles tends to make us swim with arms more in opposition.", clicks as a 'yes' in my recollection.
Originally posted by Kevin in MD
...
(www.education.ed.ac.uk/.../ms.html)
...
This recent article defines the freestyle swimming phases, as:
"...phase A: entry and catch of the hand into the water; phase B: pull; phase C: push; phase D: recovery).".
There is a material 'push' of the water.
The 'push' is considered to be in the article, a 'propulsive' phase of swimming, unlike this description in a past thread which I characterized then as being 'poetry', not real and inspired by the myth 'They're Not Hands Anymore: They're Anchors' (in page 60 of the book Total Immersion):
...
The short version is to scull with your hands to "anchor" them in the water. You then pull your body past your hands, instead of pushing water back. (It may not feel like this from your perspective, but it can be seen from the deck by a coach.)
...
Also this quote from a past thread:
...
Well, research showed that stroke rate was uncorrelated with speed. (It is highly correlated with stroke length.) Research also showed that elite swimmers were pushing back *less* water than ordinary swimmers.
...
is in contradiction with the article stating:
"These swimmers reduced the non-propulsive phases (A+D) and relatively increased the propulsive phases of pull and push (B+C)."
because reducing the non-propulsive phases, including reducing the pause advocated in Total Immersion, that's increasing the Stroke Rate (or Cadence), while increasing the pushing back of the water does push back more (not less) "...water than ordinary swimmers.".
In my last post, when Erik Vendt (US), age 21 in 2002, starts his 400 meters IM with the formidable 'Tempo' of 51.1 cycles per minute (think of the heart rate maintained for the entire duration of the race at over 210 beats per minute, think swimming VO2Max fueling oxygen into triceps, lats and legs), 'Tempo' way above some of his cruising 'Tempo' in training, and ends the 400 meters IM in 4:11.27 -breaking the world record of 4:11.79 by Tom Dolan (US)-, then Vendt has a starting 'Tempo' that he could not match with less physical conditioning from gruelling training, and he could not match after aging to say late 20s.
This tells me: train for the peak Cadence, because it is fragile and it does decline quickly.
