This thread is reminiscent of the recent thread 'Stroke Length versus Rate' by Bill White, if I recall well.
In another recent thread -'Distance per stroke'-, it appeared that slowing down the stroke -which easily increases the distance per stroke-, is a benefit.
It is a benefit to some degree, but it is not an absolute benefit.
To slow down the rate just to increase the length, that's detrimental overall in speed.
An absolute benefit is when an optimum rate to length ratio is found for each swimmer.
For my improvement now, with my current length, I need a higher rate, or cadence.
At the beginning of today's workout, the approximate following discussion took place between me and a teammate, who used to swim in age-group swimming at Mission Viejo, California.
Me: "Look at that swimmer. He is my height, takes one or two strokes per 25 yards more than I take (i.e.: takes 16 or 17 strokes per 25 yards) , yet he is faster than me."
She: "It's not in the Stroke Length that he gets you. Your Stroke Length is fine. It is with a faster cadence that he gets you."
Me: "There are people posting in the Masters Swimming Forum and there is the Total Immersion book, that emphasize to slow down the cadence only, and therefore to increase the stroke length."
(My note: the Total Immersion book does this emphasis only, by dismissing the benefits of cadence, starting in page 31; it wrongly believes that in time it is more worthy to work on stroke length than on the quickly declining stroke cadence).
She: "I never bought into Total Immersion."
Me: "Neither did I. In 1990, when I was in Canada at my peak, and being coached in a club by a coach who is now coach of the Canadian Olympic Team, when swimming the 100 meters freestyle, he was urging me to increase my arm cadence. Since that peak, I lost in cadence, because I lost alertness."
Me: "How do I increase the cadence?
Isn't this higher cadence obtained with VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), with fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body, and obtained also by physical conditioning?"
She: "It's the mental that commands the physical conditioning.
Think of the rhythm: tak_tak_tak... (type 1, like Matt Biondi is),
as opposed to: tak___tak___tak... (type 2),
as opposed to: tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3),
and as opposed to: tak_______tak_______tak... (type 4).
In distance swimming, you are a type 4 in the arms.
(My note: in the 2002 Long Course Nationals, I think that I was prepared by another coach -a neglectful coach-, as a type 4 in the arms).
When swimming distance, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak_____tak_____tak... (type 3), and when swimming sprints, force yourself mentally to turn your arms in the rhythm tak____tak____tak... (type 2)."
After today's workout, the approximate following comments took place between me and the coach.
Me: "Kelly says that I have a type 4 cadence in the arms.
How do I quicken my cadence?"
Coach: "What we can do is to slow down your aerobic base send-offs, so that with more rest you can increase the quality in each swim, and develop more gears for speeds."
Me: "What I don't understand is how come I have a quick cadence in kicking, and a slow cadence (type 4) in the arms."
(My note: there were days around Christmas 2002, training Long Course, when I was kicking with a kickboard, 50 meters repeats leaving every 55 seconds while coming in 50 seconds. This is a very fast kicking for the Masters Swimming level. Overall, swimming in Masters Swimming in my age group, I am not very fast, but in long endurance swims I rank higher than in sprints).
Coach: "Are you coming tomorrow at UCSD, and watch the dual meet between UCSD and UC Santa Cruz? I have a late starter in swimming like you, who can kick fast and cannot move her arms quickly. Late starters in swimming are like that."
(My note: the coach is also coaching the middle-distance and the distance group of swimmers for the UCSD college team).
Me: "Isn't this because of VO2Max (i.e.: oxygen fueling the swimming muscles), and because of fast-twitch swimming muscles and striated tissue that are developed best when a swimmer has a teenager growing body?"
I think so.
I started to swim in public swim at age 25, and joined my first swimming club at age 28.
Under these conditions, what I did is very good, and now what I hope for, is to restore my own level from mid-90s and go from there...
Parents
Former Member
Ion,
I guess this topic has been kicked around the board maybe a few times too many. Or maybe not. In any case the bottom line in your last post sums it up very nicely. Stroke length and stroke rate are both the result of good training and hard work.
I think a good way to describe cadence could be made in an analogy about swimmers and bike riding. Anyone who has ever ridden a ten speed bike knows that the bigger chain ring makes it much harder to push the pedals. But after a certain amount of speed is attained the pedals can be spun just as easily on the big ring versus the smaller one.
Think of stroke length as the bigger chain ring. It's difficult to turn it over fast unless there's an adequate amount of strength to quicken the revolution. But once force is applied to the bigger ring, it's without question the fastest gear. If you think about it, the fastest swimmers use the least amount of strokes and are usually very strong in the upper body. They can grab big amounts of water, hang onto it, and push it away with ease. Stroke length combined with power results in faster stroke rate which equals speed.
Your coach is right about getting you to swim faster speeds with a little more rest during the interval. You'll eventually get conditioned for a quicker turn over while maintaining a long stroke. Have you ever noticed how the stroke will fall apart when you get tired? It gets much shorter. Those big gears are hard to push when you are out of steam.
As far as the Total Immersion school of thought goes, there's no question that a long stretchy stroke will ultimately lead to faster swimming. I think what they initially promote about proper body positioning to achieve the longer stroke is right on. It's the glide factor which I don't buy into. Ian Thorpe is a classic example of a TI swimmer. His stroke is front quadrant all the way. But....he doesn't glide! He's got constant velocity throughout the stroke cycle and that may very well be the result of several factors, one of them being that he's got a tremendous kick.
I guess that the bottom line is that it's all just "different strokes for different folks". How's that for my 2 cents. Maybe someone will start a thread on how to best keep the chlorine smell out of the hair after a workout. Alot less controversial. :cool:
Thanks again Fast Ion for the interesting posts. You are a veritable font of swimming information. May you succeed in your quest for speed.
Val.
Ion,
I guess this topic has been kicked around the board maybe a few times too many. Or maybe not. In any case the bottom line in your last post sums it up very nicely. Stroke length and stroke rate are both the result of good training and hard work.
I think a good way to describe cadence could be made in an analogy about swimmers and bike riding. Anyone who has ever ridden a ten speed bike knows that the bigger chain ring makes it much harder to push the pedals. But after a certain amount of speed is attained the pedals can be spun just as easily on the big ring versus the smaller one.
Think of stroke length as the bigger chain ring. It's difficult to turn it over fast unless there's an adequate amount of strength to quicken the revolution. But once force is applied to the bigger ring, it's without question the fastest gear. If you think about it, the fastest swimmers use the least amount of strokes and are usually very strong in the upper body. They can grab big amounts of water, hang onto it, and push it away with ease. Stroke length combined with power results in faster stroke rate which equals speed.
Your coach is right about getting you to swim faster speeds with a little more rest during the interval. You'll eventually get conditioned for a quicker turn over while maintaining a long stroke. Have you ever noticed how the stroke will fall apart when you get tired? It gets much shorter. Those big gears are hard to push when you are out of steam.
As far as the Total Immersion school of thought goes, there's no question that a long stretchy stroke will ultimately lead to faster swimming. I think what they initially promote about proper body positioning to achieve the longer stroke is right on. It's the glide factor which I don't buy into. Ian Thorpe is a classic example of a TI swimmer. His stroke is front quadrant all the way. But....he doesn't glide! He's got constant velocity throughout the stroke cycle and that may very well be the result of several factors, one of them being that he's got a tremendous kick.
I guess that the bottom line is that it's all just "different strokes for different folks". How's that for my 2 cents. Maybe someone will start a thread on how to best keep the chlorine smell out of the hair after a workout. Alot less controversial. :cool:
Thanks again Fast Ion for the interesting posts. You are a veritable font of swimming information. May you succeed in your quest for speed.
Val.
