I took my 1500 m time in a 50 m pool 12 weeks before, and it was 31'42". Afterwards the 50 m pool I use closed for annual maintenance.
In these 12 weeks, I joined a squad and did 2 sessions per week, swam open water with a group every weekend, and also swam intervals on my own in a 25 m pool, with about 12 - 15 km total per week.
The 50 m pool I use reopened this week, so the first thing I did while returning was to take my time again, but the result was 31'13" - only 29 seconds improvement over 12 weeks! In contrast, I improved for 45 seconds in the preceding 6 weeks, from 32'27" to 31'42", and those 6 weeks were the weeks I newly joined the squad and I normally did only 1 session per week, and no intervals on my own.
I was targeting 30' and attempted to swim at an aerobic intensity which I thought I could sustain for 30 lengths, but I could only sustain my form for around 400 m. Afterwards, I felt my teres major were so tight that I couldn't perform my stroke well, my arms simply failed to execute my desired stroke even I reduced my stroke rate a bit, and the stiffness even persisted in the cool down after completing the set, and for another few hours.
According to my wearable, I was taking 31 - 32 cycles at the beginning, and 34 - 35 cycles at the end per 50 m length, while my stroke rate remained mostly the same. I was swimming at around 59" / 50 m in the 2nd to 4th lengths, then deteriorated to around 62" / 50 m in the middle, and about 65" / 50 m by the end.
The cumulative time as recorded by my wearable was follows:
250 m: 4'52"
500 m: 9'59"
750 m: 15'19"
1000 m: 20'31"
1250 m: 25'56"
1500 m: 31'14"
I'm very disappointed that, even after a few months of intense training, I still haven't reached 30' / 1500 m in long course yet. I'm taking a very expensive 1-1 professional analysis tomorrow, and hope that afterwards I can know all my technique problems and target them in the coming month in my own training, and get a jump in my speed.
Congratulations on taking counsel concerning your stroke. It will probably be more productive towards your goals than any training could provide at this time. It should be worthwhile for you
Do you know what the definition of "insanity" is? if not, look it up.
It is good that you are seeking a professional analysis. The problem will be if you do not believe them.
If there is anything you have gleaned from this forum it should be that good technique trumps strength, training, and youth. A swimmer with poor technique, and poor body position will be crushed by any 85 yr old with good technique and body position. Poor technique and body position in swimming is like trying to run on ice. It cannot be done well or fast.
Yet, swimmers new to the sport somehow think the laws of physics do not apply to them.
34-35 strokes per length at the speed you are going is about 34-35 strokes per minute or less. This is a slow tempo which, hazarding a guess, means you are doing an exaggerated catch-up stroke. That coupled, with your comments about a very wide kick, suggests over-rotation.
BTW - the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." I must be insane....
Still waiting for the video....
Windrath
Do you know what the definition of "insanity" is? if not, look it up.
It is good that you are seeking a professional analysis. The problem will be if you do not believe them.
If there is anything you have gleaned from this forum it should be that good technique trumps strength, training, and youth. A swimmer with poor technique, and poor body position will be crushed by any 85 yr old with good technique and body position. Poor technique and body position in swimming is like trying to run on ice. It cannot be done well or fast.
Yet, swimmers new to the sport somehow think the laws of physics do not apply to them.
34-35 strokes per length at the speed you are going is about 34-35 strokes per minute or less. This is a slow tempo which, hazarding a guess, means you are doing an exaggerated catch-up stroke. That coupled, with your comments about a very wide kick, suggests over-rotation.
BTW - the definition of insanity is "doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result." I must be insane....
Still waiting for the video....
Windrath
I think you have misread my message. I specifically typed 34 - 35 CYCLES per 50 m length, not 34 - 35 strokes per length. I was actually about 65 strokes per length, while an elite-level swimmer is doing about 35.
I swam on my own this morning, which was my last session before I took the professional analysis. I purposefully didn't write any training plan for today, and just swam a lot of 50 s, and counted strokes, with various combinations of speed, rest interval, and toys.
The first length I got into the pool was 51 strokes, but I could no longer reproduce it afterwards. The only way I could get such count was to stretch my body long (i.e. streamlining), but it was SO tiring that I was gasping for air AND my muscle was so fatigued after 50 m. My situation last year was the same, but I was starting off at about 45 strokes at the very beginning. No matter I started off at 45, 51 or 55, eventually it becomes more than 60 after a few lengths, and if I started off at 58, my muscles are less tired than I started off at 45.
And from another closed thread ( forums.usms.org/showthread.php ) on this forum:
I joined my first swimming club at age 28 in September 1986 in France, and November 1986 I swam in my first competition ever a 1500 free in a 25 meter pool in less than 21 minutes.
My best 1500 meter free Long Course is from the 90s.
Combined with the fact that I am constantly seeing newcomers without previous swimming background faster than me in the tri club squad training, I am thinking that I must be dumb watching lots and lots of YouTube videos in these few years.
Do not underestimate the importance of conditioning--you have a great coach and are much better conditioned than when you started.
Look, I guess I'm an early bloomer, but when I joined Masters a few years ago my conditioning was poor. I could not swim a set of 200s without a pull buoy, my stroke count was high, etc. Now, without changing my stroke (ingrained due to my early blooming status), I routinely swim sets of 200s, 300s, 400s and my stroke count has decreased. Is it because of fish-like swimming? No, it's because of hard work--lots of En2 and En3. DPS is increased because I'm stronger and faster. My balance is better because I'm better conditioned and have a stronger kick (no, I don't use a kickboard--it hurts my shoulders).
This is contrary to the wisdom that one should work on technique before attempt to go fast. In his example his DPS increased without changing the stroke!!!!! How the heck is it possible?!?!?!?!?!?!
When I started swimming I was all conditioning (good cardio) but no technique or developed muscle for swimming. Heck, i was doing 4000Yards worth of laps, broken into 500's, with 2-5 min rest in between, and it took me almost 2 hours to get through... but my heart rate was in the 70-90% range most of the time. (and this is with zoomers too) I was working really hard, and not going anyhere fast.
Did that for about a year, and had no improvement in times till I joined the masters team.
Then I started learning, I was crossing my arms big time, breathing like an owl, way too wide of a kick, not finishing my stroke well (which resulted in having to take so many), not keeping my head under water enough, and without fins, my kick would go backwards.
Coincidentally just a month before joining masters I bought a TI book. As I was reading the book, and hearing my coach give me advice, from my beginning perspective it sounded like, same thing with somewhat different terminology.
.....
I think when you read the TI books, you might be coming from a perspective of a seasoned swimmer(s) whom have gotten out of shape over the years, and with so much wmphasis on technique (which importance of a decent swimming form is probably a no brainer to you, like conditioning is a no brainer to me) you might be reading the book and thinking it promisses speed without conditioning, and you know that doesn't happen either.
I think TI's target audience already has fairly decent cardiovascular conditioning (coming from running or biling or weight lifting or other wide audience fitness classics), but with very little understanding of how much more technique is involved in swimming, as compared to their other fitness efforts.
What I'm getting at is that in my case the balance between technique and conditioning gives the best results.
However she improved the swimming thru mainly technique improvement!!!!!!!!
And there's another way to look at it:
When I was just beginning to swim it took me 33 strokes to go 25 yards, very slowly too.
Now, to get the same speed during drills I can take 12-14 strokes for 25 yards.
During the 1650 race I'm around 16 strokes per 25 yards.
During 50 free, I take about 22-25 strokes per 25 yards, and going much much faster then when I was taking 33 strokes.
I think where some people seem to miss the point is that the decreased stroke rate seems to tend to be the result of improved balance in water (along long and short axis), and less wasted effort.
Stroke rate from 400 free to 50 free will always go up, since we're talking about distance stroke vs. sprint stroke.
BUT, one can definately work on a distance travalled per stroke taken without decreasing speed. This comes from trimming the inefficiencies in stroke... smooting the breathing, fixing wobbles and imbalances, fixing the body balance in water.
You start doing that at slower speeds first, to get the feel of the 'efficient position', then you work it into faster sets, as much as possible.
I actually worked on the distance travelled per stroke that last year to get the feel of the efficient position, and I didn't decrease my speed, but I was much more fatigued doing this. However when I returned to my original inefficient stroke I was faster than before. However my coach tells me to stop working on that distance.
I don't know what a sprint stroke is, but the stroke count per length on me for an all out 50 m was less than that of all out 200 m, and less than that of 1500 m and up. This was contrary to what a normal person should be - indicating serious technique breakdown after 50 m. However the coach is trying to raise my stroke rate despite of this.
We all know that good technique is important for swimming, but I've seen two different aspects about that:
- You shouldn't work on increasing speed until you have got good technique, otherwise you are ingraining bad habits, causing them harder to fix and eventually leading to injuries.
- In order to have good technique, you also need to have good conditioning (fitness) as well. That's why race pace training is needed.
I'm now totally confused!!!!!
Maybe this, and another reply after having the analysis, will be last post about my swimming on this forum in these few months because I am afraid I have become insane. I actually wanted to find a coach for private lesson last year already, but I didn't know any swimming coaches nearby, even my friends didn't know. After I joined the squad I gave up the idea of getting private lesson, and decided to take out credit card debt in order to have a professional analysis instead because it may worth multiple lessons. However, it has taken nearly 10 weeks since I started asking for availability because it is so damn hard to get a pool available for video analysis in winter! I am trusting the squad coach for these few months. If I still can't get my expected improvement afterwards, I will give up swimming after this year.
Good that the analysis is completed.
You don't say if the analysis includes a video. If it did, that is good. if it did not, you need to be video taped so you can see what your swimming looks like. Since watching 100s of videos has not helped, a key part of your learning process may be that you need to see what you are doing. Some athletes can pick things up just by watching. Others have to try it. Still others need to see it, try it, and watch themselves do it. And, ultimately, you need to forego conditioning in favor of technical practice sessions that have a skill progression. Lots of 25s and 50s with immediate feedback. At this point, a 50 swim done with good technique is better than 10,000 mtrs of the wrong technique.
The second part you need to get comfortable with is which is more important: technique or conditioning. Although you may have read my analogy in other posts, I come back to this every time. Swimmers with poor technique are like dragsters with slick tires on ice. They will go nowhere regardless of the horsepower (strength) or the amount of gas (aka conditioning) in the tank. Add studs (aka good technique) to the tires and a dragster with a 5 hp engine (just a little strength) and a pint of gas (just a little conditioning) will beat the other dragster every time.
Good Luck...
ps - remember the definition of insanity
You are right - I misread your post about stroke count. My apologies.
As for the other references, I have seen video of Ion. He had pretty good technique - just thinks it is best to breathe every single stroke (not stroke cycle) - stroke. It worked for him.
As for gull, there are no details or specifics in his post to know what he means by stroke or getting stronger. I suspect he already has good technique.
The final references from conniekat8. She shows that improving technique made a big difference.
Each person needs to find their own path - wish you luck with that.
The analysis was a swim smooth video analysis by the same club and same coach where my squad training is.
The coach found out a large dead spot in the front of my stroke caused by over reaching, and also told me that my head position was too low and rotating too much, combined with the lack of catch causing me to lose balance completely.
It's good now that I know what I should do in the coming months or so, and I am deemphasizing conditioning now, mainly work on what the coach told me last evening.
I finally did the analysis today - as expected there are serious technique problems. Basically I was all wrong from my hand entry, to the nonexistent catch.
All the hundreds of videos watched before in my past 4 years helped nothing for me, although I knew the shape I simply couldn't emulate it without the guidance of a coach, partly because of my wrong hand entry.
Something is not right - based on your description. Making technique adjustments might seem awkward, but you should not be out of breath unless you are doing something wrong or at too high an intensity. Technical changes need to be made at slow speeds to understand how the muscles, limbs, and body need to move together. They should NOT be done at a high intensity level until you have mastered the skill at a slow pace. Only after you get it all together should you try to increase the intensity.
Good technical swimming should feel like a "sweet spot" - it will be far different than what you were doing, but it should not feel harder than what you were doing before. This is why I said you need constant feedback during this time of change.
Forget about the clock and time - focus entirely on what your coach told you to do and get constant feedback. Your heart rate should not be anywhere close to 100 bpm at this point. If it is higher than that, you are doing something wrong.
Another stab in the dark - describe your body position in the water (extreme detail: head, shoulders, hips, feet, and their position in relation to each other).
Windrath
Windrath
