Last year at about this time, I had a forum entry about USMS not accepting the times because of a supposed clerical error in the pool certification application. It was pointed out to me that it was a pool measurement error and not a clerical error that caused this. It frustrated me because I had swum 5 LMSC freestyle records and 6 top ten Zone records. I had done this under duress as I had a stent placed in a blocked artery not long after the meet.
Well, since that time, I have swum in two competitions, SCY and LCM. On both of these meets, I asked the individuals if the pool measurement were certified. The SCY was in a stationary bulkhead pool that received certification before the meet and the LCM in a movable bulkhead pool.
Everything went ok in the SCY but when I looked up my times in the Zone and USMS sites, they did not appear. Just this week, I found out it was another pool measurement issue and my, once again LMSC records and top tens have been wiped out.
I know the reasoning behind the exclusion of the times but +/- 1cm would not make a difference in where I or anybody in the meet would finally appear in any top 10 or record.
This is a stiff penalty to pay for people to pay for driving good distances to swim in meets, pay good money and spend all day Saturday and Sunday for what comes to be a glorified practice. If USMS is going to be draconian with its rules, they should, in this day of instant messaging, have a set up whereby the pool measurements could be verified and certified on the morning of the meet if it is being held in a movable bulkhead pool.
Thanks for letting me rant.
Bob Sigerson
BTW, the reason the pool was disqualified was because of the touchpads. Look at the following straight out of the USMS rule book and tell me that my times and others should not be counted.
Touchpads—When touchpads are used as part of an automatic timingsystem, the thickness of these pads shall not cause the length of the racingcourse in any lane to fall below the minimum required length. Rule 106.2.1 E
Hi Bob,
Man oh man, I remember last year and I was the one who replied at that time as well. My partner, Mary Beth Windrath, is the person who reviews all the pool measurement forms that are submitted. She has the pool measurement forms and I looked at them. The prior-to-the-meet measurements, indeed, indicate at least one lane was short before the meet began.
Let me respond to a couple of things:
a) You are probably right that +/- 1 cm does not make a measurable difference in a 50. However, in any race longer than a 50, that 1 cm DOES make a measurable difference when timing to the 100th of a second.
b) The wording in the rule book is NOT very clear. You should read it to mean that the pool must be at least the minimum length when touchpads are in place. If the pool is measured before placing the touchpads, the meet personnel need to make sure the pool will be long enough after the 3/8" touchpad allowance is factored in. This means that a 50 meter pool, measured before 2 touchpads are in place, must measure at least 164' 1-1/4" (read that as 1 and 1 quarter inch). Some of the lanes in the pool in question measured 164' 5/8".
c) USMS is not draconian about the rules - they are the same as USA Swimming. The problem is that USMS has people in charge of measuring pools who either don't know how to measure or don't know what the measurements should be. The pools in question have measured short 3 of the past 4 years. Due to this issue, swimmers need to know what the pool should measure AND specifically ask the meet referee BEFORE THE MEET what the pool measurements are to ensure the times will be accepted. Yeah, I know, something wrong with this picture, but "what is wrong" is not the rules.
d) I have long advocated for a fudge factor when pools measure too short - especially after the session is complete.
e) The best answer for you and others may be to NOT compete in pools with movable bulkheads and/or in LMSCs with a questionable record of pools being too short. Again, does not seem right, but this boils down to qualified people to measure as well as understand the readings and know what needs to be done before the meet starts.
I know this does not change the results, but maybe explains things better as well as offering advice on how to ensure the future will be better.
Paul Windrath
It’s likely less than 1cm of timed difference. The pad will probably compress maybe half, or even more than half, of its thickness before the sensor is contact made.
I wonder if the pad was not flush with the wall during measurements
I did the calculations before, and at 30 sec/ 50 in an SC pool 1 cm made about .01 sec difference per 50.
In this case, if they knew the pool had one lane short, they should have closed that lane(if the others were OK.) In a meet I was at in AZ in 2003 they did not invalidate all the results from the first day, only the ones from the lanes that measured too short. They caught this at the end of the first day and let those affected reswim our events if we wished the second day, when all lanes measured OK. That had the ""interesting effect that in the official results, I was shown as slower than people I had beaten head to head.
I worry a little at every meet I go to with a bulkhead, but most venues do seem to get it right. I pray that we don't end up with a measurement controversy about a Nationals.
Paul, I want to apologize for my touchpad interpretation. After rereading it, I realize they meant that it says that the touchpads do not negate the need for the pool to be 50 meters(164'1/2") in length. I am sorry for my interpretation.
BTW, I want you to know that after being burned last year I asked for certification of the scy pool before entering and asked the persons involved with the LCM meet if they had measured and certified the meet prior to swimming in it. What more can a participant do if they are not privy to see the certifications forms which are sent in post meet?
Another btw, LSU Natatorium uses the thin Daktronics touchpads which USA Swimming says are 5mm (3/16) thick.
I will continue this discussion after the holidays, in the meantime, have a MERRY, MERRY Christmas.
Bob Sigerson
I really don't swim in USMS meets, but this topic is kind of interesting to me. A couple of questions I have is...1) How long have those touch pad timing systems been in use? And, 2) why aren't competition pools designed and built to accommodate them and still make the pool length regulation...even though the pool owner may not currently be interested in having them? I'd think that a spacer could be used to fill the space where the pad would go. Seems like it'd be easy enough to create space during the construction, and then have a removable spacer mounted there until the pads are needed.
Also, WRT pool length certification...why aren't the certifications on display during meets? It's something that ever single participate is concerned with. Individual swimmers should not have to go seeking the certification out. FINA/USAS/USMS should mandate that to meet organizers have the certification on display during meets.
Dan
Bob,
No worries about the wording of the rule.
If I were you, I would ask to see the actual pool measure form. They are supposed to do the measurement before the meet starts - THAT DAY. They are also supposed to measure after each session of competition. This means the pool measurement form should be at the pool and available to see.
Thanks for info about Daktronic pads - that should be a consideration and maybe should be in the rules and pool measurement form.
Merry x-mas to you as well.
paul
_steve_
The pool was measured without pads in place. This is a common procedure because it is can, sometimes, be harder to measurement when pads are on place.
The rules have an allowance factor, clearly stated on the measurement form, for the width of a pad - 1/4". In this case, there were two pads being used for the meet, so a pool measurement without pads in place has to take this in account. A measurement without the 2 pads in place needed to read at least 164' 1". There were several lanes that were not this long.
Pool measurements are really tricky and, too many times, the people doing the measurements don't think through it critically enough which gets them into trouble - after the fact. A short measurement should trigger all kinds of immediate response until the pool is fixed.
