Now that I've gone through the hassle of signing up as a member of this dicussion group, this gets more and more fun. Maybe I'll get fired from my job :)
Anyway... I'm sure that ALL Masters level swimmers have heard of Total Immersion (from now on referred to as TI) swimming, correct? What are everyone's opinions about TI swimming? I am most curious because as a coach of age group swimmers, I was looking for training videos for our kids. I happened upon TI and liked what I saw... at first.
Here's some background for my experience with TI... very well put together, most of what they teach has been in existence for some time anyway, and they certainly are good for teaching novice/beginner swimmers the basic technique for swimming.
However, when looking to swim fast, and I mean fast, not lap swim quality, but truly competitively, I thing TI has missed to boat completely. Yes, smooth and efficient swimming is nice, but did anyone see the NCAA's? There are 20 year old men swimming 9 strokes per length in breaststroke! We have a number of age group coaches in my area teaching their kids how to swim breaststroke at 6 or 7 strokes a length!!! What gives? Extended glide is one thing, but when you slow down your stroke to such an extent just to achieve long and fluid strokes you sacrifice speed tremendously.
Hey, if you can swim 9 strokes a length at 1 second per stroke that is WAY better than 6 strokes a length at 2 seconds per stroke. Simple math.
Anthony Ervin of Cal swam the 100 free in the follwing SPL... 12 (start)/15/16/16. I could be off but that's what I was able to get from the (ahem- PALTRY) ESPN coverage. Now TI has goal SPL's of 12/13! Hello, if the BEST sprinter in history takes 8 cycles, shouldn't that tell us something? Turnover is very important. Same with streamlining, yes streamlines are nice and quite important but A.E. pops up after 5 yards MAX out of each turn. You only serve yourself well if your streamline is faster than you can swim, most age group swimmers would be well-served to explode out of the turn and swim within 3-4 yards.
Alas, it's been a slow day finishing my work for the week. Just looking to start a nice discussion. It's been my experience that a lot of Masters level swimmers are also engaged in coaching age group swimming at some level, and therefore I feel we can get some good dialogue going on this issue.
Now I've just used TI as an example because that's what I've had my experience with, but more general is what keys do you all stress when trying to mold competitive swimmers?
Au revoir,
-Rain Man
Parents
Former Member
Originally posted by cinc310
...
The butterfly and freestyle and even the terrible backstroke I had was made better than the general non-swimmming population by doing yardage more than 3,000 yards a day usually 5 days a week.
Yes, Cynthia.
When I get a shameful result (like 2:39 for 200 free this past August in Long Course in Cleveland) I think of it this way:
and where would I be if I give up, and become a lap swimmer who swims 'for fun to stay in shape'?
certainly slower, so worse.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
With your speed in the 100, there is absolutely no reason you can't get down to 2:22 in the 200 meters. With your repeats you should have easily broke 2:25. I feel you are probably overtraining.
...
My speed in the 100 free Long Course in 1994 -when I did 2:27 for 200 free Long Course- was 1:06, in 1996 was 1:04 (competition in June 1996 in Santa Clara), and in 2002 was 1:09.
I think 'overtraining' is a key word, opposed to training at race pace:
if one grinds mileage through fatigue, through lifting weights that don't contribute to fast swimming, but contribute to an athletic look on dry land, then one races like the grinding is: slow.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
When I was your age I changed teams, ...
...
I had good coaches prior to 1995, when I came to US:
a coach from France for two years who picked me up at age 28 from public swim into his club of senior (over 18 years old) racers, a coach from Canada who put me for one year into his club of seniors and who later on coached the 2000 Canadian Olympic Team, and a Masters coach for three years in Canada who was an university varsity swimmer.
I need to find the level of coaching that puts me in race shape, here.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
How long did you taper? Did other swimmers from your program do well or did they not improve at Nationals?
...
Three weeks, and my body wouldn't bounce into higher energy, but would get out of shape.
Over the last two years I was the only one training for the combo, Short Course Nationals and Long Course Nationals.
Nobody else prepared for the 2002 Long Course Nationals.
In general, a few would occasionally do a meet then rest for years.
In 2001, another swimmer -training all year long in yards- came to Long Course Nationals, physically broken down from training, skipped 100 and 200 free, and did 50 free and 50 fly.
I trained in yards in fall, winter and spring, and meters in the summer.
The meters training is what I describe as 'cafeteria' training: no agenda for racing, training at race pace, peaking, recovery or tapering, but self servings of swimming in the lane of your chosen pace, with forever aerobic; many swimmers in the program recognize this 'cafeteria' training style.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
I really suggest you do more swim meets, especially the short course meters season.
I see this.
Originally posted by Matt S
...
I still have a subjective feeling I am sitting on another big drop, and that this year's Nationals was not my best performance...
...
Ion, just a note for your consideration: is oxygen debt holding you back?
...
Because of ahsma issues, he breaths every 1. (Yup, not every 3 or even every 2; every 1--...
...
I also think that I have a drop in me, based on workouts.
About oxygen debt, it is possible that it holds me back, and that in the past when I was faster, breathing every three strokes was good.
Right now, with coaches, we have the consensus that breathing when I need it, every one stroke, that's a faster swim than holding the breath to have a pattern of 2 or 3, which make me lame.
Originally posted by Matt S
...
...every 1--both sides. I know; I counted for him in his 2001 800 free when he went 11:20.) The only way he can do that without having his hips sink way below the water and swimming like a cement truck, is by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.
...
I wonder if Paul -who claims in another thread that I need major technical improvements-, and Phil -who claims in another thread that I need better balance based on my 100 yards free in Hawaii, and in this thread mentions that Ervin has better balance than me-, considered this
"...by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.",
which was observed from close range by Matt.
It's refreshing to me that Matt sees positives.
Originally posted by cinc310
...
The butterfly and freestyle and even the terrible backstroke I had was made better than the general non-swimmming population by doing yardage more than 3,000 yards a day usually 5 days a week.
Yes, Cynthia.
When I get a shameful result (like 2:39 for 200 free this past August in Long Course in Cleveland) I think of it this way:
and where would I be if I give up, and become a lap swimmer who swims 'for fun to stay in shape'?
certainly slower, so worse.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
With your speed in the 100, there is absolutely no reason you can't get down to 2:22 in the 200 meters. With your repeats you should have easily broke 2:25. I feel you are probably overtraining.
...
My speed in the 100 free Long Course in 1994 -when I did 2:27 for 200 free Long Course- was 1:06, in 1996 was 1:04 (competition in June 1996 in Santa Clara), and in 2002 was 1:09.
I think 'overtraining' is a key word, opposed to training at race pace:
if one grinds mileage through fatigue, through lifting weights that don't contribute to fast swimming, but contribute to an athletic look on dry land, then one races like the grinding is: slow.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
When I was your age I changed teams, ...
...
I had good coaches prior to 1995, when I came to US:
a coach from France for two years who picked me up at age 28 from public swim into his club of senior (over 18 years old) racers, a coach from Canada who put me for one year into his club of seniors and who later on coached the 2000 Canadian Olympic Team, and a Masters coach for three years in Canada who was an university varsity swimmer.
I need to find the level of coaching that puts me in race shape, here.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
How long did you taper? Did other swimmers from your program do well or did they not improve at Nationals?
...
Three weeks, and my body wouldn't bounce into higher energy, but would get out of shape.
Over the last two years I was the only one training for the combo, Short Course Nationals and Long Course Nationals.
Nobody else prepared for the 2002 Long Course Nationals.
In general, a few would occasionally do a meet then rest for years.
In 2001, another swimmer -training all year long in yards- came to Long Course Nationals, physically broken down from training, skipped 100 and 200 free, and did 50 free and 50 fly.
I trained in yards in fall, winter and spring, and meters in the summer.
The meters training is what I describe as 'cafeteria' training: no agenda for racing, training at race pace, peaking, recovery or tapering, but self servings of swimming in the lane of your chosen pace, with forever aerobic; many swimmers in the program recognize this 'cafeteria' training style.
Originally posted by breastroker
...
I really suggest you do more swim meets, especially the short course meters season.
I see this.
Originally posted by Matt S
...
I still have a subjective feeling I am sitting on another big drop, and that this year's Nationals was not my best performance...
...
Ion, just a note for your consideration: is oxygen debt holding you back?
...
Because of ahsma issues, he breaths every 1. (Yup, not every 3 or even every 2; every 1--...
...
I also think that I have a drop in me, based on workouts.
About oxygen debt, it is possible that it holds me back, and that in the past when I was faster, breathing every three strokes was good.
Right now, with coaches, we have the consensus that breathing when I need it, every one stroke, that's a faster swim than holding the breath to have a pattern of 2 or 3, which make me lame.
Originally posted by Matt S
...
...every 1--both sides. I know; I counted for him in his 2001 800 free when he went 11:20.) The only way he can do that without having his hips sink way below the water and swimming like a cement truck, is by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.
...
I wonder if Paul -who claims in another thread that I need major technical improvements-, and Phil -who claims in another thread that I need better balance based on my 100 yards free in Hawaii, and in this thread mentions that Ervin has better balance than me-, considered this
"...by having excellent balance, spot on perfect head position, and good body roll.",
which was observed from close range by Matt.
It's refreshing to me that Matt sees positives.
